Which Contemporary Catholic Theologians Did The Best Against Luther

[p.falk]

I was listening to a history on Erasmus vs Luther, focusing specifically on their debate. It sounds like Erasmus not only ended up in disagreement with Luther, but accidently made his position sound in opposition to the Catholic Church as well.

The video stated that Luther won pretty easily (albeit, ruthlessly).

Looking into Luther vs the Catholic Church. Which theologians did the best against Luther?

It seems the notable other debates are against Johann Eck, Cardinal Cajetan, and John Fisher. Any of these men (or others) come out ahead of Luther in their debates?

[anawim]

From what I've read Card. Bellarmine did an excellent job. I haven't read too much of his writings, but he was a Jesuit so I'm sure he did a thorough job.

[Doom]

John Fisher's "Confutation" of Luther has recently been translated into English for the first time (it was originally written in Latin), and while I haven't read it, he does go through Luther's work line by line. He points out how he misuses and misquotes Augustine, including one instance where Luther quotes half a sentence from Augustine to make it seem like he is saying the opposite of what he really said if you quote the rest of the sentence.


But here is the thing about arguing with Luther: based on my reading of him, Luther was one of those people who would say anything it takes to "win" an argument, inventing new doctrines off the top of his head whenever necessary. Then in the next tract, he would say the exact opposite of what he said in the previous one if doing so would give him "victory". Thus, he tended to paint himself into a corner quite frequently.

The classic example of Luther just making up new doctrines off the top of his head is the debate with Johann Eck. Eck cornered him on purgatory by quoting 2 Maccabees; Luther responded by saying Maccabees is not canonical. He had never called the Deutrocanon into question before that point; he apparently just decided to do so at that exact moment. Whatever he needed to say to win the argument, as he defined winning.

Also, in the same debate, Eck had him cornered by getting Luther to agree to a proposition of John Huss, which had been condemned as heretical. Luther, who had never even heard of Huss before that point, responded by saying that Huss was correct and was no heretic, and that the Council of Constance was wrong. Whatever it takes to win.

Also, I am well aware of the difficulty of me, as a nonprofessional, 500 years after the fact, to psychoanalyze anyone, but Luther gives me the impression of having been a delusional narcissist.

The classic example of Luther's narcissism is his response to Henry VIII's "Defense of the Seven Sacraments" (whether this was really written by Henry or ghostwritten by Sir Thomas More is an open question). In this work, Henry criticizes the addition of the word "alone" to Luther's translation of Galatians "for we are justified by faith".

Luther's infamous response?

"If anyone should ask you why the word 'alone" tell him that 'Dr Martin Luther will have it and he is a doctor above all doctors"

Just, wow.

[anawim]

I've also read that Luther probably suffered from scrupulosity.

[Doom]

I've also read that Luther probably suffered from scrupulosity.

That is an understatement

[VeryTas]

I've also read that Luther probably suffered from scrupulosity.

That is an understatement

But apparently not scrupulosity about being accurate, consistent, or truthful.

[Doom]

Well, that's just it. If you asked him, Luther would deny being a liar. He was incredibly stubborn and resistant to being persuaded into anything, but I don't think he intentionally lied.

The most charitable thing to say about him is that "he was not a systematic thinker."

[p.falk]

Thank you for all of this info. I feel like Johnny5 (Short Circuit).

Regarding the topic of Luther - Oh how I miss the simpler days of the internet and Catholic apologetics. Back when Taylor Marshall was known for his (pardon if I get the title wrong) "Paul is Catholic" podcast. I remember an old episode where he was reading some translation of what Luther wrote. It really made you think Luther was coming unglued: the amount of times he called some Catholic a "donkey".

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

St. Jerome was not above name-calling

[Highlander]

Read a bio of Luther once. As I recall, his theology was not the major element in spreading his influence. It was more a movement by the soon to be non-Catholic princes of Germany who used (and shielded) Luther for their own political ends.

I do recall an instance where certain German folk disputed the Church and the emerging "Lutheran" sect. Luther was instrumental in having them dispatched in various creative ways.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

One does not want to dispatch one's opponents in the same old way, time after time.

[Student]

One does not want to dispatch one's opponents in the same old way, time after time.

indeed. Hhow gauche (as the french of the time might have said).