Relationship between Mary and Joseph

[Seatuck]

I’m sitting in on a series of lectures by one of our Auxiliary Bishops.
The topic is advent with one of the characters of the nativity story being the focus of each session. Last week was St John the Baptist. This week is Mary.He did a phenomenal job with the immaculate conception. But, now, I’m a bit confused since he spoke about Mary and Joseph.. He described a relationship between them as being young and in love. With that young love being interrupted by Gods plan. He actually said Joseph was the love of her life who she was planning to marry. He kind of lamented on why did God do this to her? I think he expected us to meditate on that for the answer.

I’d always understood that Mary was young but most likely Joseph was older and this was an arranged marriage because she had taken a vow of virginity. Was that not the case for sure? Was that invented to make the ever virgin teaching more palatable for Joseph?
Why did I think that? I know I read it and heard it many times. Where did that come from? I assume little t tradition. ? Is there more than one church accepted scenario for Mary and Joseph’s relationship?
What can I read to understand this relationship, please?

[peregrinator]

We don't know how old St. Joseph was, though there is a small-t tradition that he was an older widower with other children. But the lecture sounds ghastly.

[anawim]

I’m sitting in on a series of lectures by one of our Auxiliary Bishops.
The topic is advent with one of the characters of the nativity story being the focus of each session. Last week was St John the Baptist. This week is Mary.He did a phenomenal job with the immaculate conception. But, now, I’m a bit confused since he spoke about Mary and Joseph.. He described a relationship between them as being young and in love. With that young love being interrupted by Gods plan. He actually said Joseph was the love of her life who she was planning to marry. He kind of lamented on why did God do this to her? I think he expected us to meditate on that for the answer.

I’d always understood that Mary was young but most likely Joseph was older and this was an arranged marriage because she had taken a vow of virginity. Was that not the case for sure? Was that invented to make the ever virgin teaching more palatable for Joseph?
Why did I think that? I know I read it and heard it many times. Where did that come from? I assume little t tradition. ? Is there more than one church accepted scenario for Mary and Joseph’s relationship?
What can I read to understand this relationship, please?

It's been a long time since I read the Protoevangelium of James, but I think the whole arranged marriage between "older" Joseph, and Mary comes from that.

Personally, while I think Joseph was older (after all, Mary was a young teenager), if he was 25 years older, that's not exactly decrepit. He would still have been young enough to be strong and capable.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

AFAIK what he said is pure speculation. Perhaps it’s based on some private revelation. In any case, I wouldn’t put much stock in it.

[Doom]

It seems clear that Joseph was aware that Mary had taken a vow of virginity, and that he agreed to marry her with this understanding.

The nativity story in the Gospel of Matthew is usually poorly translated in most Bibles as it says that Mary and Joseph were "betrothed" which is to say in the modern sense "engaged". This is completely wrong. They were not merely engaged, they were already married. The Jewish custom was that a marriage had two stages, after the marriage was performed, the couple would spend about a year apart while the husband built a home for them to live in. After this was completed, they would live together, which is what most translations mean when it says "before they came together" i.e. came to live together. So when Mary says to Gabriel "How can this be since I know not a man?" this is being said by a woman who is already married and thus a consummation should have already occurred, she should have "known a man" by the time the angel arrived, and thus should not have expressed surprise at the idea of getting pregnant. There is no possible way to interpret Mary's response except as evidence that Mary had taken a vow of perpetual virginity.

Now, did Joseph know that Mary had done this before he married her? How could he not? But note that the Law of Moses anticipates a situation like this.

In Numbers 30 is a law that seems rather bizarre by our standards. The law concerns women making a vow. It says that if a woman makes a vow, and her father disapproves, he has the right to annul it. But if her father does not annul it, then her husband has the right to annul it, but if he chooses not to then she must carry out the vow.

What on Earth is this about? I've seen many attempts to explain it, but the only one that makes sense is that it refers to vows of virginity. What other kind of vow would a husband have the right to annul? Note that it says that if her husband chooses not to annul her vow, then she must carry it out.

In other words, it appears to be saying that if a woman takes a vow of virginity, her father can annul it because he wants grandchildren, and if he does not, her husband can annul the vow because as her husband he has conjugal rights. But if the husband chooses not to annul the vow, then he is consenting to her keeping the vow.

Thus, it seems clear that Joseph was aware of Mary's vow and chose not to annul it.

So any theory that it was "young love that was interrupted" is just nonsense, Mary's vow of virginity could not possibly have been a completely random spontaneous thing that happened at the Annunciation. indeed the story of the Annunciation makes sense only if Mary had already taken a vow of virginity before the angel arrived.

[Kage_ar]

I’m sitting in on a series of lectures by one of our Auxiliary Bishops.
The topic is advent with one of the characters of the nativity story being the focus of each session. Last week was St John the Baptist. This week is Mary.He did a phenomenal job with the immaculate conception. But, now, I’m a bit confused since he spoke about Mary and Joseph.. He described a relationship between them as being young and in love. With that young love being interrupted by Gods plan. He actually said Joseph was the love of her life who she was planning to marry. He kind of lamented on why did God do this to her? I think he expected us to meditate on that for the answer.

I’d always understood that Mary was young but most likely Joseph was older and this was an arranged marriage because she had taken a vow of virginity. Was that not the case for sure? Was that invented to make the ever virgin teaching more palatable for Joseph?
Why did I think that? I know I read it and heard it many times. Where did that come from? I assume little t tradition. ? Is there more than one church accepted scenario for Mary and Joseph’s relationship?
What can I read to understand this relationship, please?

It's been a long time since I read the Protoevangelium of James, but I think the whole arranged marriage between "older" Joseph, and Mary comes from that.

Personally, while I think Joseph was older (after all, Mary was a young teenager), if he was 25 years older, that's not exactly decrepit. He would still have been young enough to be strong and capable.

There is a well-known, ghastly to the point of sacrilege, novel called "Two From Galilee" in the evangelical Christian world that paints this steamy romance story of Mary and Joseph.

[BobCatholic]

There's a Polish Christmas Carol that has a line that is translated "and Old Joseph" which implies that Joseph was an older guy - maybe even elderly.

I doubt the elderly part - I believe he was an older widower - and probably his late wife died in childbirth, which was common back then. They didn't have contemporary medical science then.

I imagine him as in his 30's.

Also, since Mary took a vow of virginity, as she got older, there would be nobody to take care of her after her father died - not like she could get a job - that didn't happen. So she needed a husband to take care of her - and arranged marriages fit that bill.

[Vern Humphrey]

Also, since Mary took a vow of virginity, as she got older, there would be nobody to take care of her after her father died - not like she could get a job - that didn't happen. So she needed a husband to take care of her - and arranged marriages fit that bill.

How would an older husband care for a younger wife in her old age?

[BobCatholic]

How would an older husband care for a younger wife in her old age?

We're not talking a 60yo here, we're talking about a guy who is in his 30's. Older yes, but not elderly.

By the time she gets into her old age, the oldest son is required to take care of her under the Mosaic law. If that oldest son dies, then the next oldest son has the responsibility, and so on.