The Catholic Message Board

gherkin wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 12:42 pm I assume he didn't intend anything bad. It was probably just supposed to be some interesting history. Maybe some poor judgment and maybe some mistaken ideas, but on the bright side there's no heresy involved in making a simple historical error.

It's not like advocating gherkinism or something.

peregrinator wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 7:59 am

Stella wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 6:45 pm That position begs a lot more questions though. Is it pure coincidence that Christians developed customs out of the blue that essentially mirror old pagan customs. ie. Odin the long bearded old man flying through the sky on an eight legged horse delivering gifts to children. Or wassailing like the carollers going from door to door singing to banish evil spirits. Or decorating the trees for winter solstice.

You mean it raises questions, not that it begs questions although assuming those practices are pagan or that there is an unbroken tradition of them from pagan times into the Christian era might be begging the question.

Oh darn, that slips out of me on occasion. I've even done a semester of philosophy and the logical fallacies when I was at University.

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 2:28 pm

gherkin wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 12:42 pm I assume he didn't intend anything bad. It was probably just supposed to be some interesting history. Maybe some poor judgment and maybe some mistaken ideas, but on the bright side there's no heresy involved in making a simple historical error.

It's not like advocating gherkinism or something.

peregrinator wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 9:01 am I'd be very surprised if the Puritans banned Christmas trees specifically - it just wasn't a popular custom in the United States at the time. It didn't spread outside of German immigrant communities until the mid-19th century.

They banned Christmas completely, but not because they claimed it was pagan. They banned it because:

1. it is allegedly nonbiblical
2. it is too Catholic
3. Public festivities of it often involved drunkenness and debauchery. The holiday in popular celebration had fallen far from its roots, much like St Patrick's Day and Mardi Gras often do today.

Christmas trees as such were not commonly associated with Christmas celebrations in North America before the 19th century. And in fact, modern Christmas celebrations are largely the product of two 19th century writers, Charles Dickens in "A Christmas Carol" and "A Visit from Saint Nicholas" by Clement Moore. A recent movie about Dickens and the writing of "A Christmas Carol" was called "The Man Who Invented Christmas" and that's not too far from the truth. Certainly, Dickens invented the custom of giving charitable contributions as part of the Christmas celebration.



I've never seen anything that suggests that they thought it was pagan, and I've never seen any evidence that the "pagan" argument was lobbed against Christmas before the19th century, and even then it was made by atheists and agnostics as part of a general attack on Christianity and wasn't adopted by fundamentalists until decades later.

Riverboat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 12:27 pm All of this is enormously interesting, but I'm still trying to get the nasty taste out of my mouth from the homily that engendered this thread. What kind of priest has the effrontery to bring this up in a Christmas homily?

He was giving what he thought, and what most people who haven't researched it think, is the origin of Christmas. He wasn't trying to undermine anything. He continued by giving what I think is the correct history of the celebration of Christmas, that at first celebrations of Christmas were at midnight and that it would be a couple more centuries before Christmas Mass was celebrated in the morning, and that the reason for the midnight celebration is the parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins, and other passages (a thief in the night) where the Second Coming is described as happening in the middle of the night to symbolize that we are always ready, whenever it may occur. This is almost certainly true. He was most certainly not trying to undermine anyone's faith.

By the way, the Puritan condemnation of Christmas as "unbiblical" is technically true. There is no passage in the New Testament that says that Christians are required to celebrate Christmas on December 25. Everyone knows this, but to those of the Reformed tradition, such as the Puritans, and those influenced by it, such as modern fundamentalists, it is definitive because of the way they interpret the Bible. Their approach is that anything which is not specifically commanded is forbidden. Catholics, Lutherans and most other Christians apply a much more generous rule that anything which is not prohibited is allowed. This is why the Puritans and others reject Christmas and consider the "unbiblical" nature of it to be decisive. This is also why fundamentalists often make bizarre arguments like "the word Pope is not in the Bible" or for the anti-trinitarians "the word Trinity is not in the Bible", anything which is not explicitly spelled out word for word, is simply wrong, according to them.

Also Wisdom 18:14-15. If he was picking up stuff from Protestant sources, he'd have missed that one.

Doom wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 5:17 pm He was most certainly not trying to undermine anyone's faith.

Well, you sure fooled me. Your entire post consisted of the falsehoods which you yourself debunked, quite ably, I might add. I was going entirely on the context. I might add that probably every single member here has had the unedifying experience of enduring a homily that makes one wonder if he walked into the wrong church by mistake.

gherkin wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 12:42 pm I assume he didn't intend anything bad. It was probably just supposed to be some interesting history. Maybe some poor judgment and maybe some mistaken ideas, but on the bright side there's no heresy involved in making a simple historical error.

On the holiest night of the year, why squander a homily bringing up stuff that isn't true?

Jimmy Akin massacres that pagan argument to small fragments

https://jimmyakin.com/2022/12/christmas-myths.html

Because he thought it was true.

Riverboat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 9:50 pm

On the holiest night of the year, why squander a homily bringing up stuff that isn't true?

I already answered that question, EVERYONE who hasn't done the kind of research I have done thinks it is the origin of Christmas. If you ask 10,000 people origin of Christmas, 9,999 of them will tell you that Christmas originated as an attempt to co-opt a pagan holiday, and only one of them will be someone like me who will say that is total nonsense and get argumentative about it. And frankly, that is probably what he was taught in seminary.

Indeed. before I did all this research several years ago I would have said the same thing. Except that if someone used it as an argument against Christmas on the basis that it was an attempt to co-opt a pagan holiday, I would have responded by saying that is just the genetic fallacy, which is 100% true, but an unnecessary argument to make.


This is the problem with this kind of blanket claim, it takes 15 seconds and one paragraph to make the claim, and then it takes 1000 hours of research ad 250 pages of text to refute it.

And I might as well post this classic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0-EgjUhRqA

Doom wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 10:41 pm

Riverboat wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 9:50 pm

On the holiest night of the year, why squander a homily bringing up stuff that isn't true?

I already answered that question, EVERYONE who hasn't done the kind of research I have done thinks it is the origin of Christmas. If you ask 10,000 people origin of Christmas, 9,999 of them will tell you that Christmas originated as an attempt to co-opt a pagan holiday, and only one of them will be someone like me who will say that is total nonsense and get argumentative about it. And frankly, that is probably what he was taught in seminary.

Indeed. before I did all this research several years ago I would have said the same thing. Except that if someone used it as an argument against Christmas on the basis that it was an attempt to co-opt a pagan holiday, I would have responded by saying that is just the genetic fallacy, which is 100% true, but an unnecessary argument to make.


This is the problem with this kind of blanket claim, it takes 15 seconds and one paragraph to make the claim, and then it takes 1000 hours of research ad 250 pages of text to refute it.

You haven't cited any sources for your 'facts' though. How are we to trust that they aren't invested in inordinate fear of pagans and rejection of God's law in their hearts?

For what it's worth, I second Doom's statements. Note that I agree with Doom only reluctantly, although it is still Christmas and I need to practice being generous.

Stella wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 2:56 am

You haven't cited any sources for your 'facts' though. How are we to trust that they aren't invested in inordinate fear of pagans and rejection of God's law in their hearts?

I did, The Oxford Handbook of Christmas, I cited this book earlier in this discussion.

But I do have several other sources including

The Stations of the Sun by Ronald Hutton (for all the information about the Roman calendar which discusses the apparent fact that pagans didn't care about the winter solstice and never celebrated it)

The Origins of the Liturgical Year by Thomas J Talley (on where Christian festivals originated)

Encyclopedia of Christmas and New Year's Celebrations by Tanya Gulevich (for the origin of many Christmas traditions including Christmas trees)

Norse Mythology by Neil Gaiman (preface goes into extensive discussion of the fact that we have no idea where these legends came from or whether they are authentic Norse legends or were invented by Christians after the Christianization of Scandanavia, or if it they are a combination of the two, a mix of authentic legends and tales written by Christians, Gaiman leans towards the 3rd option)



I can provide more, but these will suffice

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 10:22 pm Because he thought it was true.

I think that's a necessary but not sufficient condition for preaching on a topic, though. "It's true and it helps to better illustrate the Gospel", maybe? I admit I'm biased but it's hard to see how "the origins of Christmas are actually pagan" does the latter.

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 12:54 pm For what it's worth, I second Doom's statements. Note that I agree with Doom only reluctantly, although it is still Christmas and I need to practice being generous.

Well you're a Jedi from a parallel universe so don't matter.

Doom wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 2:23 pm

Stella wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 2:56 am

You haven't cited any sources for your 'facts' though. How are we to trust that they aren't invested in inordinate fear of pagans and rejection of God's law in their hearts?

I did, The Oxford Handbook of Christmas, I cited this book earlier in this discussion.

But I do have several other sources including

The Stations of the Sun by Ronald Hutton (for all the information about the Roman calendar which discusses the apparent fact that pagans didn't care about the winter solstice and never celebrated it)

The Origins of the Liturgical Year by Thomas J Talley (on where Christian festivals originated)

Encyclopedia of Christmas and New Year's Celebrations by Tanya Gulevich (for the origin of many Christmas traditions including Christmas trees)

Norse Mythology by Neil Gaiman (preface goes into extensive discussion of the fact that we have no idea where these legends came from or whether they are authentic Norse legends or were invented by Christians after the Christianization of Scandanavia, or if it they are a combination of the two, a mix of authentic legends and tales written by Christians, Gaiman leans towards the 3rd option)



I can provide more, but these will suffice

We know that winter solstice was a very important event for the Celts in Ireland since Newgrange remains a major ancient and fascinating site. There is a perfect configuration that records the light of the sun 'standing still' (solstice) a moment mythologised as a battle in the underworld to steal back the daylight from some ancient 'grinch'.

I believe that fact that much that is put forward is speculation, leaves Christians but specifically the Magisterium, free to use what helps us understand the mysteries of Christ, God with us. St Patrick and what we were taught about his evangelising of Ireland for example, was a creation of the papacy of the time. By the same token we have to be wary of histories of Christianity in Ireland, written by the Protestant English.

Bottom line, is it really that bad that we recognise pre Christian preparation in pagan cultures? They at least respond to the great mystery of the Creator and why we were created in a way that modern day atheism completely voids.

No one here that I can see is arguing against your bottom line. The argument is that it's unnecessary to invoke it with respect to Christmas.

Stella wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 6:42 pm St Patrick and what we were taught about his evangelising of Ireland for example, was a creation of the papacy of the time.

Wow. You must have sat through some really egregiously bad St. Patrick's Day homilies.