Is the blessing of same-sex unions in any way compatible with Catholic teaching?

[gherkin]

No, I wasn't claiming that it was Christian teaching that disease is divine punishment for sin.

Thanks for clarifying that. I was just going by what you said, which was "Leprosy was considered deserved back in the early days of the Church..." So you can see why it looked like you were talking about what the Church taught.

Just that it was an ideology that pervaded the culture at the time, a hangover from Jewish belief.

Citations? As always, the evangelization of cultures takes much time. It took almost 1000 years for slavery to be largely eradicated in the West through the influence of the Church, and it took an equally long time for many other pagan or, yes, Jewish ideas to be fully eclipsed by the Gospel. Unfortunately, that time of the relative dominance of the Gospel in western culture came to an end hundreds of years ago, and as I've mentioned elsewhere, we're still just barely hanging on to that Christain intellectual and spiritual capital that makes us have compassion for the weak and powerless.

There was little incentive to study and treat disease when it's considered punishment. I'm of the view that the same could be said of homosexuality today. We need to understand it's genesis and hopefully get clarity in the science fields that treat these issues.

Homosexual inclinations might be studied, but of course the scientific establishment doesn't view it as an affliction of any sort, and so what's there to study? Homosexual acts are just sins, and there's nothing much for science to tell us here. The sources of sin are pretty well known: the world, the flesh and the devil.

[Gandalf the Grey]

Homosexual inclinations might be studied, but of course the scientific establishment doesn't view it as an affliction of any sort, and so what's there to study? Homosexual acts are just sins, and there's nothing much for science to tell us here. The sources of sin are pretty well known: the world, the flesh and the devil.

What's really interesting as well as amusing is that the more that Queer Theory activists continue to make inroads into the secular cultural consciousness they're essentially dismantling the notion that there is even such a thing as homosexual inclinations. They've been arguing for years that there is no such thing as a biological origin of the homosexual identity just like there is no such thing as a biological origin to gender or any other type of identity. Queer Theory says that all identities are merely performative and are just based on subjective feelings. An "identity without any essence."(David Halperin- "Saint Foucault: Towards a Gay Hagiography")

So much for being "born that way."

[Jack3]

There's a new press release on it
https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/cong ... ns_en.html

[zeno]

I can hear it now...if this "clarification" is given any attention at all it will be...

Vatican says no room for dissent from document approving blessings for same sex couples.

"Evidently, there is no room to distance ourselves doctrinally from this Declaration or to consider it heretical, contrary to the Tradition of the Church or blasphemous.'

[Essential Sacrifice]

I can hear it now...if this "clarification" is given any attention at all it will be...

Vatican says no room for dissent from document approving blessings for same sex couples.

"Evidently, there is no room to distance ourselves doctrinally from this Declaration or to consider it heretical, contrary to the Tradition of the Church or blasphemous.

Sadly, so very sadly, so very true Z ... Not only does Satan get his way in both religious worlds and secular, the very people who need the most help and prayer are further sucked in to the ever deepening chasm of the so called DEI all the while our Church suffers especially within our own ranks.

I'm looking at you Francis, You have the ability to support and defend the Catholic tradition, the true Magisterium but seem to prefer the popularity of the seculars' world instead.

[Stella]

What if it turns out that a couple disposed towards Gods Will in whatever measure, are actually given grace to grow by a Priests spontaneous/pastoral blessing? I'm wondering if some people really don't believe a blessing 'will work' for sinners.

[zeno]

That is, of course, ridiculous and you know it.

[Stella]

That is, of course, ridiculous and you know it.

But that is the bottom line of the Declaration as stated in the above clarification...

"The real novelty of this Declaration, the one that requires a generous effort of reception and from which no one should declare themselves excluded, is not the possibility of blessing couples in irregular situations. It is the invitation to distinguish between two different forms of blessings: “liturgical or ritualized” and “spontaneous or pastoral”. The Presentation clearly explains that «the value of this document […] is that it offers a specific and innovative contribution to the pastoral meaning of blessings, permitting a broadening and enrichment of the classical understanding of blessings, which is closely linked to a liturgical perspective». This «theological reflection, based on the pastoral vision of Pope Francis, implies a real development from what has been said about blessings in the Magisterium and the official texts of the Church»."

What reasons would a person have for saying that these particular sinners shouldn't receive the blessing described?

[zeno]

Again, ridiculous. No one is objecting to the blessing of individuals. But it's a bit disingenuous to describe the process for such a thing and then claim, oh but it's not a ritual or approval and those of you who take this process we have set up and perceive it as a ritual or approval are baaad people. Never mind that the press is reporting it as the Catholic Church now blesses same sex couples. Who could foresee that? (anyone with a brain).

The bottom line is that they overstepped and are now trying to walk it back without walking it back. Hurling insults at people who express concern about the impression the document gives isn't helping anyone.

[Gandalf the Grey]

"The real novelty of this Declaration.... is the invitation to distinguish between two different forms of blessings: “liturgical or ritualized” and “spontaneous or pastoral”...

I can agree that there is such a distinction between liturgical and non-liturgical blessings.

What I absolutely refuse to accept-and which is an utter novelty designed a-priori to indirectly and inevitably change Church doctrine by first changing Church praxis-is this notion of a new subcategory of "spontaneous" and/or "pastoral" blessings that priests apparently must be obliged to give without any question or discernment.

"All novelty of faith is a sure sign of heresy."

- St. Vincent of Lerins

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3506.htm

[zeno]

The thing is though, I don't know how much "discernment" most priests give when asked for a blessing. As long as it is an appropriate time and place most priests say sure. I don't think they tend to give the person(s) approaching them the 3rd degree about their personal lives.

[Kage_ar]

The thing is though, I don't know how much "discernment" most priests give when asked for a blessing. As long as it is an appropriate time and place most priests say sure. I don't think they tend to give the person(s) approaching them the 3rd degree about their personal lives.

Yup.

[BobCatholic]

Weaponized ambiguity at work.

[Stella]

Today on another site I was reading a very heartrending testimony from a practicing Catholic involved with the ministry, Courage. I thought I'd repost here as a contribution to the discussion as a means of 'walking in the others shoes'.

How does Fiducia Supplicans affect you, personally, in your current state of vocation? How does it hurt or help what God has asked of you in your state in life?

Now, I don't necessarily expect nor need an answer. It's more rhetorical, perhaps. But I do not ask it flippantly.

You see, I'm involved with Courage International, an approved Catholic apostolate for men and women who experience same-sex attractions (SSA), and those who love them. More importantly, they promote living with SSA in a Catholic way, incorporating and integrating the crosses they bear in order "to open one's life to God, to ask for His help to live better, and also to invoke the Holy Spirit so that the values of the Gospel may be lived with greater faithfulness." (FS, 40.)

To do that, for anyone with SSA, is quite a challenge! They get hit on "two fronts" as it were, and on the front that seek help with, the Way of Christ does not provide a "remedy" for this "burning" that St. Paul offers Holy Matrimony to be. (1 Cor. 7:8-9). To worsen matters, Western society has completely turned against them. It may appear that Western society is "welcoming them," etc. Yet, in reality, instead of showing SSA folks social stigmas or outright violence as in the past, now they are encouraged to live in ways that hurt them...very deeply, in fact. Moreover, Courage doesn't simply wait for SSA folks to come to them. They outreach as well, striving to bring the Truth of the Gospel – which alone can allow anyone with SSA (and related issues) to live a life of freedom, love, and hope – to a world that has, for intents and purposes, lost its mind.

I wonder if you know how simple & easy it is for folks with SSA, even those who know the truth, to be destroyed. Certainly, for the vast majority, their affliction will cause a lifetime of pain, error, immorality, and that's just getting started. Many of them have been treated poorly their entire lives for something they cannot control (although all I've known wished they could). Many have been beaten, rejected by family, belittled, bullied, and killed simply for having the condition. And this is also true for many of the folks we see in Courage. It happens literally all the time, even among those who don't act on their SSA. Even in good Catholic families. All. The. Time. It's why we even have an almost full sub-apostolate dedicated to helping those who love the person with SSA (EnCourage).

All the years I've been involved, it has only gotten worse. In just a decade, societies have become either violently hostile even to judicial or mob execution to people with SSA (not simply those who act on those urges, either), or so "welcoming" they might as well beat them given that affirming or legitimizing SSA ends in an internal pain...even misery. Even misery unto death by despair & suicide. And, yes, even in Courage some people suffer the last also, because the condition is an extremely difficult one to bear. Even with grace, its a heavy cross. The Evil One has won the cultural war here, and so the Church must do the best she can. Courage is one of the ways she does this.

And I can assure you, Courage is grateful for Fiducia Supplicans. Why they of all people, given their staunch orthodoxy in faith & morals (to which I can readily attest!) would give thanks for FS might seem impossible to understand. And I suppose it would be...if Fiducia Supplicans did teach error in faith and morals! Yet, Courage is behind it, even promoting it & its authentic meaning. Attached is the header of a recent Letter to the Apostolate on this very point.

One the reasons that Courage International understands the value of this document's teaching (which, honestly, is more about the theology of benediction than anything) might be put this way:

The post-Christian, post-modern world has, in a way, almost entirely lost its collective mind. Moreover, the Catholic Church & Christianity in general are being rejected on grounds having little to do with liturgy or theological presentation (as in the past). So, what is the Church – especially the Supreme & Ecumenical Pontiff – to do in response?

The Church could, in the face of the near total loss of sense nowadays, bunker herself. Restore old rites, embrace disciplines that exclude sinners or punish them publicly, return to the manualist moral theology and/or Neo-Scholastic tradition, & make the world engage her on her terms. "The Church's way or the highway"; and if you take the highway, well the more's the pity for you. But the Church will, if nothing else, remain pure of the madness around her at any cost. Even if the world burns, let the Church be pure of any taint of this wretched earth!

On the other hand, the Church could brave the unstable world, like a man walking on thin ice to help another who has fallen through it. Leaving her own places of power or theological comfort for the sake of souls whose collective madness is likely to bring destruction and Hell. She can strive to find a way to really *speak* to this world in a manner they can understand...or, at the least, will not ignore out of hand without giving it a second thought. She could, on the one-hand, strengthen herself by regulating her liturgy, enforcing orthodoxy among theologians, and seeking insights from ressourcement. Yet, simultaneously, she could also go out to the extremely dark & twisted paths walked by many; especially those with SSA. In doing this, Church could also both simultaneously maintain her traditions in substance, but also dispense with much that, frankly, drives away many souls in need.

She could do that also with full trust in Papal & Ecclesial indefectibility, promised by Christ in this her most sacred of tasks. And she could do it knowing that, even if mistakes are made, the gates of Hell cannot prevail. No fear of failure.

Consider that. Salvation of souls trumps everything else in the Church, aside from fidelity to Christ (which is already guaranteed, anyway). Courage follows that charge with great zeal.

And does it not remind you of something? Something we hear many times each year? It is Written:

https://biblia.com/bible/esv/matthew/25/14-30

Forget not that the wicked servant didn't fail to return the Master's talent. In fact, he kept it quite safe! It was undefiled by changing, messy hands of moneymakers, dirtied by stinking marketplaces or bazaars, nor tarnished by constant handling. No...it was just as his Master had left him...and he was cast into Hell for doing what appeared to be simply the Master's Will.

For the Master commanded nothing from the servants except to simply entrust them with his money.

Reflect on this, I beg you as a Reader of the Church. Hopefully tomorrow I can tackle the question of Fiducia Supplicans itself.

Pray for me, the sinner.

https://www.christianforums.com/threads ... t-77529817

[Stella]

Eve Tushnet writes this article for The Pillar. She interviews several people in different kinds of relationships all desiring to live in accordance with Catholic teaching. It's tempting to think of gay people as lewd, chaps wearing and defiant but it's a real trial for most.

Fr Hurley from St Dominic's parish, San Francisco makes a really good testament to the nature of the blessing.

But for his part, Fr. Michael Hurley, OP, outlined his views on the subject with a refreshing confidence.

Hurley is the pastor of St. Dominic’s Parish in San Francisco.

“I think I have a reputation for meeting people where they’re at,” he told The Pillar.

“But at the same time, we’re a church known for the Dominican identity of seeking the truth. That does mean conversion.”

St. Dominic’s parishioners include gay people with a wide range of relationships to the Catholic Church, the priest explained.

Hurley said that in his pastoral ministry, he tries to hear people’s stories: “Where are you in life? Where is God in your life? Even if I could bless you, it’s not magic; the rest of your life [needs to be] receptive.”

Hurley talked about the blessings offered at a baptism, when the parents receive a blessing even if they are not married:

“You bless them, as mother of this child and father. You lean in to what can be blessed, the avenues in which God’s grace can work; and if there are things which need to be worked out, you hope that follows.”

“The blessing shouldn’t be the first or the last item” in a pastoral relationship, he emphasized.

Keith Wildenberg first came to St. Dominic’s at the prompting of his partner. Keith and his partner had already had a ceremony of “spiritual brothering,” based on Eastern Christian traditions of adelphopoeisis or adoptive brotherhood, and were living chastely.

The pair met with Fr. Hurley together.

“There are a lot of folks who go into conversations like that expecting the worst,” Kaith said with a laugh — “on both [sides]!”

He recalled that Fr. Hurley “asked to hear our story. And because I’m the talker, I was telling my story and he kept gently turning it back to [my partner]. There were several delightful surprises,” including that Fr. Hurley “consistently used the word ‘friendship,’ bringing it back to Aquinas and Aristotle.”

Keith said he knows that “out in the world… when you talk about friendship, it feels so small. When you use the word ‘friendship’ with people who aren’t in the know, it seems demeaning.”

Language about friendship can strike people in different ways.

Barbara told The Pillar about her unease when people at her parish would hear her refer to her partner as “family” and yet continue to refer to them as “friends.”

But while Barbara felt that language of friendship was used to avoid talking about the reality of her partnership, Keith saw that language, in the context of his conversation with a Dominican priest, as a way to fit him and his partner into a longstanding spiritual and intellectual lineage. He felt that Fr Hurley presented “friendship” as a way of elevating their love, rather than minimizing it.

The meeting with Fr. Hurley convinced Keith that “yes, this parish is our home now. And also that our friendship is sacred.”

Keith said that Hurley sought out their gifts, encouraging them to join the choir -– both because of their love of sacred music, and because of “the community that has formed in this choir.”

And in the course of their conversation, Hurley blessed them.

That meant a lot, Keith said.

“I reminded [my partner] of that the other day and he smiled big, because it’s what he remembers most from our time: just how very, very warm it felt. I can’t recall the words of the blessing. I just recall the warmth of it.”

Keith has spent decades mentoring gay Catholics. He said that many pastors—and same-sex couples—don’t have a good sense of what a Catholic vision for their love might look like:

“You’ve told us we need to be blessing around the hopes and dreams that the Church has for this gay couple, but the Church has never said what those hopes and dreams are, at least not explicitly.”

He suggested that “for a couple who were ‘openly noncelibate,’ if you will, I might couch [a blessing] in terms of growing closer to Christ and to community, and sharing gifts with the community. Give that couple a reason to stick around. You’re not putting these people through hoops, you’re not applying canonical tests to their disposition to receive this blessing.”

He noted that gay people often need time to grow in trust before they can begin “visioning” what a life in harmony with Catholic teaching might look like.

For his part, Hurley emphasized the importance of pastoral accompaniment.

“Oftentimes folks who are in ‘irregular situations’ feel like they don’t have access to pastoral accompaniment,” he said.

“If the document is able to give the idea [that they can come in], even if it’s a mistaken idea of what is actually offered, it can always be a starting point to a conversation. You always look for: how do you take one step forward? That’s why we’re not angels. Angels get one moment, we’ve got our whole life to walk that journey.”

With a big laugh, Fr. Hurley added: “I won’t be having classes about how to read [Fiducia]. All you’re going to get is folks [taking] sides.”

He said he’d rather spend time blessing than debating.

“I welcome anyone who wants blessings to come on down! We bless what we can bless, and let God take care of the rest.”

https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/one-st ... e-american

[zeno]

Please do me a favor and avoid posting long bits from other sites. A few sentences to hit the highlights with a link for those who want more is much preferred. Thank you.

[peregrinator]

It's not a good piece

[ProZak]

There is no blessing for the unions, just the people.

[peregrinator]

There is no blessing for the unions, just the people.

If you bless people together, you bless what brings them together.

[ProZak]

Sez who?