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I know we all say, "Impossible!" but say, suspending belief the way we would if we were discussing fiction like comic books, if the impossible happened and you came to a horrifying and inescapable conclusion that the Catholic Church was not the true Church, how would you feel?

Or if you had already reached this conclusion previously, how did that feel?

When I think about it, I feel so troubled sometimes, as if looking down a terrifying black abyss. It would be like someone had, with a great jolt, pulled the rug from under me, but instead of landing on the floor, the room itself gives way to this endless void and I keep falling and falling.

I would have to question the reality of everything: Is the world around me real? Am I real? What is real? Who are those people around me? Is there a God? What God is this? Is it all an illusion?

It's terrifying, but then, I don't know... it shouldn't be so terrifying... because if I turned out to be wrong, I don't know... despair would still be wrong even in the face of the impossible?

What if? i don't understand the point of this question, care to clarify?

Doom wrote: ↑Sun Jul 09, 2023 1:49 pm What if? i don't understand the point of this question, care to clarify?

Just a theoretical question of if, in the impossible, the Catholic Church proved false in a rather more objective than subjective way (e.g., reversing one of their key doctrines through some theological gymnastics)... I was just wondering how others would feel or cope with such a shock. Do you feel like life could go on, there would be new bridges, or everything would just stop?

There was a time, a long time ago where someone I liked and trusted a lot, said to me with conviction that people only use religion as a crutch because of fear of death or other fears. It actually made me start thinking about my lifetime of faith and having disturbing niggles of doubt. What turned out to be a blessing was that I'd always loved Pope John Paul II and I was able to trust that if he believed, then I would believe. I guess some people would say I should just trust Jesus Himself, but in a time of real doubt and fear, it was JPII that meant something real for me. Hence I've never delved into questions like the OP since then. So in a nutshell I can't really answer it.

I reached a point where my choice was black and white: Either Catholicism was true or all of Christianity was false. (And for the record, I did consider Orthodox as a subset of "Catholicism"). If Catholicism was off the table, I would have become Jewish or an atheist.

As it stands for me, if the Church were a sham, then either:
1. Everything else is a sham also, or
2. A few things still stand, like my existence (though possibly temporary), death as likely but not necessarily certain, and perhaps taxes.
In either case I could submit to whatever power over me was strongest, with or without despair. And there I'd be.

I would likely be a very depressed atheist. Islam - not a religion of peace - is clearly false. Judaism doesn't make much sense to me without Christianity (and by Christianity, I mean Catholicism).

With the world imploding at an ever-increasing rate (maybe not, by maybe), lately I've been wondering... The 11 apostles present in the upper room all split up and went the their 'separate ways' to preach the Gospel, almost all in different locales around the known world. Although information doesn't travel as far and fast as it does now, if it was a scam (or at least if any of them believed it was a scam), it seems very unlikely that none of them would have cracked, none of them would have just admitted 'we made it all up'. That's one reason the intellectual side of me hangs in there.

What if I don't want to participate in this conversation?

When I visit museums and observe the century old religious objects such as bibles with illuminated gold inscriptions and other objects made from valuable gold and intricately crafted objects made into Catholic or Christian religious artifacts, I often can see it as a potential sham. There is plenty reason to question it all.

However, 2,000+ years of people focusing on Christian faith is absolutely not a sham. People have undoubtedly been praying and reading and listening at church. It’s 100% real.

On the other hand, I believe the Shroud of Turin is a sham.

Inthepews wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2025 10:39 pm On the other hand, I believe the Shroud of Turin is a sham.

What evidence does not meet your threshold?

Inthepews wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2025 10:39 pm When I visit museums and observe the century old religious objects such as bibles with illuminated gold inscriptions and other objects made from valuable gold and intricately crafted objects made into Catholic or Christian religious artifacts, I often can see it as a potential sham. There is plenty reason to question it all.
.

It's art. Art is supposed to be enjoyed.
Maybe you're over analyzing this.

Riverboat wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 10:46 am

Inthepews wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2025 10:39 pm On the other hand, I believe the Shroud of Turin is a sham.

What evidence does not meet your threshold?

I am no expert on the shroud but I put in some research hours looking into it. It’s one of those things everyone has an opinion about.

To make a long story short I believe the shroud is a hoax. What do you think?

My faith is based on public revelation i.e. the Scriptures, Tradition and Magisterium

I read in particular the early Fathers and there is stream of authentic Catholic Christianity that continues for 2,000 years.

Private revelation (approved or not) and objects like the Shroud neither increase or decrease my faith so I do not engage with them.

Inthepews wrote: ↑Fri Jan 17, 2025 11:05 pm What do you think?

I've put some time researching this as well. I'm convinced it's genuine. Either way, it does not alter my faith.

I am very much a layperson but I’ve heard plenty of priests interpret the story of Jesus differently than me. In my opinion, Jews killed Jesus, they just used non Jew military to carry out their dirty work. And in Talmudic texts they say it’s okay to kill a non Jew if someone else does the killing for them. How nice is that?

I also do not believe Jesus was Jewish. I believe he was Hebrew and he broke away from the Jewish faith upsetting a bunch of angry Jews. I’ve heard a lot of priests say the blanket statement that “we are all Jews” but I do not think it makes any sense to be both a Jew and Catholic at the same time. Because in my opinion Jews killed Jesus for the reason of disagreeing with the Jewish religion. Jews basically say you cannot disagree with Jews and the punishment is they want you dead. In the Talmud they say they want you to burn for eternity in a vat of boiling pig excrement. How nice is that?

There’s too much disagreement between Jews and Catholicism. In my opinion they are not allies at all.

Catholics worship Jesus and we do it openly and we share this faith with others. On the other hand, Jews essentially worship themselves in more of a self serving sense. Jews conceal themselves and their beliefs away from non Jews. Much of Jews tradition is based in secrecy within the Jewish community. It’s even said in the Talmud not to tell non Jews of any of their traditions or ways of life.

Thus I am not Jewish even though I’ve heard priests say “all Christians are Jewish”. The way I see it is Jews hate Christian’s with absolute furious hatred. I’m not sure why exactly they hate us but they do.

Let’s take George Soros as an example……

Inthepews wrote: ↑Thu Jan 23, 2025 7:05 am I also do not believe Jesus was Jewish.

Hoo-boy. This right here explains everything you've posted so far.

There was a time when I wasn't really sure. The Church seemed too complicated. But as I have aged, it think that if the Catholic Church did not exist, I would yearn for something like the Church. A place of beauty (before modern architecture) where a sense of stillness and reverence calms the confusion of the world. A group of men and women who live selflessly for others and encourage others to give of themselves. A body of deep thinking going back centuries that builds upon previous truths. But it most importantly gives what we all desire - love. To see the crucifix and the sacrifice Jesus did just for me, and then for Him to come to me in a special way in the Eucharist should push us to live better. The Catholic Church is my last and only hope.
If the Catholic Church were a sham, then I give up. I would not be sure about anything. I would not sure why I am here or what my purpose would be. Jesus, I trust in you.

To the OP, it is not, so why fret about it.

The Catholic Church would only be false IF and ONLY IF Christ were false.

The Catholic Church is the Bride of Christ.

Christ is not a single guy. He is the Bridegroom, the Catholic Church is the Bride. One Bridegroom, One Bride.

Christ is not divorced. He didn't divorce the Catholic Church and marry some Bible church down the street.

Christ is not a polygamist. He didn't marry the Baptist church and the Methodist church or fifty other churches.

If Christ is false, all the other churches are false as well.

In this case, the only choice would be to start looking for synagogues and seeing which ones are the most orthodox.