The Catholic Message Board

There are quite a few popular online Catholic apologists: Trent Horn, Keith Nester, Scott Hahn, Jimmy Akin, Bishop Barron, Taylor Marshall, Matt Fradd, Joe Heschmeyer, Eric Sammons, Larry Chapp, numerous others. Some more Traditional, some leaning more progressive.

It hits me at times that Mark Shea really missed the boat. He got way too wrapped up in a political ideology and undermined his own apologetical work for Catholicism.

His articles played an important role in my reversion. Back when he could politely disagree with Fr. Z (it's something just scrolling through the years of their interactions and seeing how Shea's condemnation took on louder and louder proclamations). Back when he and John C Wright had their "Mutual Adoration Society". Shea would regularly laud Wright's merits as a Sci Fi author.... I couldn't even imagine him addressing Wright anymore.


But still, Shea had a wonderful way of explaining the faith. When my wife's WELS pastor would throw up some seemingly end of Catholicism I would rush online for articles from Shea and Hahn... and feel that their explanation for this seeming contradiction of Catholicism made more sense.

I see him at times on small channels on Youtube, but he's never brought on to Matt Fradd's show (and Fradd has his moments where he'll bring on a well known Catholic apologist just to talk about the history of their work in the field), he doesn't have his own show.

It seems weird having such a prominent online voice at one point being all but forgotten. It probably has been even years since The American Catholic had an article touching on Shea.

He brought it on himself, granted. But, I would like it if he completed his character arc in a more sane way. He had this article once on Thomas Pink (Catholic supporter of integralism)... and in his article he was saying Pink was some MAGA Trump supportin' nutball. I was interacting with Shea on a post a few weeks after that one and asked him why he called Pink a Trump supporter when (1) he's English and (2) he's never even mentioned the topic of American politics. Shea had absolutely no idea what I was talking about, claimed he didn't even know who Thomas Pink was. It was then I became convinced that he was writing articles to just get views and really had no idea what he was even talking about. This was all around the time when Thomas Pink was mentioned in some news articles regarding integralism and Mike Lewis offered some half-baked insults.... Shea just ran with that having no idea who he even had in his target.


To end this: I still hope for that character arc...

Me too. Back when I was on my way into the Church, and for several years thereafter, Shea was a big help.

His is a sad story of what unmanaged temper can do.

Mark Shea is a good example, but if you really want to see a fall from grace, look up what happened to Gerry Matatics, or Bob Sungenius

I'm a bit more familiar with Sungenius.
His old debate with James White was incredible. That's at least what I thought years back. I was just happy to see a Catholic not prance around issues and dive right back at White. However, maybe if I were to watch it now I'd feel different.

I don't know much about Matatics, but he was brought up as an example of a Catholic falling from grace when that VoiceofReason situation exploded.

Sungenis is a heliocentrist who has petitioned the Vatican to renew the condemnation of Galileo, and he is a crazy antisemite who denies the Holocaust and supports a conspiracy theory that Jews are secret Satanists who are trying to rule the world.

I didn't know all of that about Sungenuis. I do remember some scandal about a movie he worked on where they tricked a well-known physicist to appear on a movie about heliocentrism. Yeah, not shady stuff at all.

Not to go into too much detail, but I realized early on that Shea was not all that he seemed. On the original board he mentioned something about his anger at a girlfriend that he had in college, and it raised red flags.
At, the time, he seemed calm and rational, so I thought it was out of character, and maybe he had matured beyond his college self.

p.falk wrote: ↑Fri Aug 22, 2025 11:28 pm I didn't know all of that about Sungenuis. I do remember some scandal about a movie he worked on where they tricked a well-known physicist into appearing on a movie about heliocentrism. Yeah, not shady stuff at all.

And the documentary was narrated by Kate Mulgrew, she, like the others involved, says that she was misled about the nature of the documentary

anawim wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 4:29 am
At, the time, he seemed calm and rational, so I thought it was out of character, and maybe he had matured beyond his college self.

What? Even when he was here, he was prone to erratic outburtss.

I thought the Sungenis books to be terrific when I was really looking into apologetics many years ago.

Not By Scripture Alone was a direct link in the chain that brought me into the Church. I was never a Bible-only sort, but I had friends who were and was looking for replies to what they said. That book might even have been where I first encountered Shea, and it is certainly where I encountered St. John Newman's Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine.

Who were some of the bigger names in apologetics that used to post on the old board?

I believe I signed up in 2010 over there... and that was right after some of those folk had stopped because I could search for topics that were maybe only a year old by that point and still see Steve Ray post. I thought I heard Jimmy Akin posted.

p.falk wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 1:42 pm Who were some of the bigger names in apologetics that used to post on the old board?

I believe I signed up in 2010 over there... and that was right after some of those folk had stopped because I could search for topics that were maybe only a year old by that point and still see Steve Ray post. I thought I heard Jimmy Akin posted.

I never saw Jimmy Akin, not a Catholic but Jay Dyer used to post here

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 12:22 pm Not By Scripture Alone was a direct link in the chain that brought me into the Church. I was never a Bible-only sort, but I had friends who were and was looking for replies to what they said. That book might even have been where I first encountered Shea, and it is certainly where I encountered St. John Newman's Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine.

The problem became apparent with "Not By Bread Alone", in which he devotes an inordinate portion of the text trying to refute the Theory of Relativity, believing, incorrectly, that it contradicts Transubstantiation; he even goes into depth trying to refute the Tensor Calculus, a mathematical theory that is indeed quite difficult, and which the equations of General Relativity are usually writtenm and he makes way too much of Einstein's joke that once his theory was written in terms of the Tensor Calculus (by Hermann Weyl, whom Einstein had asked for help with the math) "I can no longer understand it", this was actually true because Tensor Calculus is often taught to advanced Undergraduates today, in 1930 was a brand new idea understood by only a handful of people.

p.falk wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 1:42 pm I thought I heard Jimmy Akin posted.

It was rare, but he posted at least once (maybe twice) that I remember.

Doom wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 3:57 pm

p.falk wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 1:42 pm Who were some of the bigger names in apologetics that used to post on the old board?

I believe I signed up in 2010 over there... and that was right after some of those folk had stopped because I could search for topics that were maybe only a year old by that point and still see Steve Ray post. I thought I heard Jimmy Akin posted.

I never saw Jimmy Akin, not a Catholic but Jay Dyer used to post here

Jay Dyer, very cool.

I watch him at times in debates.

anawim wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 7:04 pm

p.falk wrote: ↑Sat Aug 23, 2025 1:42 pm I thought I heard Jimmy Akin posted.

It was rare, but he posted at least once (maybe twice) that I remember.

I agree; it happened, but not often.

p.falk wrote: ↑Fri Aug 22, 2025 5:39 pm There are quite a few popular online Catholic apologists: Trent Horn, Keith Nester, Scott Hahn, Jimmy Akin, Bishop Barron, Taylor Marshall, Matt Fradd, Joe Heschmeyer, Eric Sammons, Larry Chapp, numerous others. Some more Traditional, some leaning more progressive.

I think Joe Heschmeyer is fantastic and have even linked to one of his YouTube videos in a thread I began here: Archeological find of 3rd century prayer to St. Titus