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"if you do not forgive"
Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2025 10:36 pm
by Jack3
Can someone who confesses their sins, repents of them - except one: the refusal to forgive - does he receive valid absolution?
Let us assume the refusal to forgive was a venial sin in this situation.
I'm trying to understand how the Bible verse comes into play here, Mat 6:15 and the parable of the unforgiving servant
Re: "if you do not forgive"
Posted: Thu Sep 11, 2025 3:15 pm
by Obi-Wan Kenobi
A person who is unrepentant of a mortal sin can't be absolved, but refusal to forgive is not always grave matter.
Re: "if you do not forgive"
Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2025 10:25 pm
by Jack3
But Jesus says, if you don't forgive those who sinned against you, then God won't forgive your sins.
So is that not to be taken literally, not teaching us about how and when God forgives; but merely an exhortation to forgive others?
Re: "if you do not forgive"
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2025 8:33 am
by Doom
Jack3 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 12, 2025 10:25 pm
But Jesus says, if you don't forgive those who sinned against you, then God won't forgive your sins.
So is that not to be taken literally, not teaching us about how and when God forgives; but merely an exhortation to forgive others?
That isn't the only place. In the Our Father, it says, "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." This definitely seems like a condition.
I think what Father is saying is not that we are not required to forgive but that refusing to forgive is not always a mortal sin. In the parable of the Unforgiving Servant, who has a large debt forgiven, but who then refuses to forgive a much smaller sum owed to him by another servant, the unforgiving servant isn't thrown into "the outer darkness" (or whatever term a translation uses), where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth", he is put into prison "until he pays back every penny", this sounds like Purgatory rather than hell.
Re: "if you do not forgive"
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2025 10:35 am
by VeryTas
As often, Doom makes some excellent points.
Re: "if you do not forgive"
Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2025 3:47 pm
by Obi-Wan Kenobi
I agree with ... with ... with ... we've having another heat wave. I want Fall!
Re: "if you do not forgive"
Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2025 2:19 pm
by Jack3
Doom wrote: ↑Sun Sep 14, 2025 8:33 am
Jack3 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 12, 2025 10:25 pm
But Jesus says, if you don't forgive those who sinned against you, then God won't forgive your sins.
So is that not to be taken literally, not teaching us about how and when God forgives; but merely an exhortation to forgive others?
That isn't the only place. In the Our Father, it says, "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." This definitely seems like a condition.
I think what Father is saying is not that we are not required to forgive but that refusing to forgive is not always a mortal sin. In the parable of the Unforgiving Servant, who has a large debt forgiven, but who then refuses to forgive a much smaller sum owed to him by another servant, the unforgiving servant isn't thrown into "the outer darkness" (or whatever term a translation uses), where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth", he is put into prison "until he pays back every penny", this sounds like Purgatory rather than hell.
Of course, refusal to forgive by itself isn't always a mortal sin.
What I was wondering is that our Lord explicitly puts a condition on forgiveness: your sins will be forgiven only if you XYZ. Without XYZ, there's no forgiveness for you.
So does that make XYZ an additional requirement (over contrition and confession) for forgiveness from God?
Re: "if you do not forgive"
Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2025 2:35 pm
by Doom
As I said, I think it is clear that we have been offered forgiveness on no other terms.
Re: "if you do not forgive"
Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2025 7:25 am
by VeryTas
Doom wrote: ↑Mon Sep 15, 2025 2:35 pm
As I said, I think it is clear that we have been offered forgiveness on no other terms.
On no other terms than what?
As you said where?
Re: "if you do not forgive"
Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2025 9:28 am
by Doom
Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us
The implication is clear, if you do not forgive you will not be forgiven
Re: "if you do not forgive"
Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2025 1:10 pm
by Jack3
Suppose I go confess.
I have committed one mortal sin, of which I repent.
I also committed a venial sin of withholding forgiveness, and I persist in it.
Do I receive valid absolution? Am I forgiven? Do I receive sanctifying grace? Why?
Re: "if you do not forgive"
Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2025 10:03 pm
by Obi-Wan Kenobi
Yes, you receive forgiveness. Yes, you get sanctifying grace. But your refusal to forgive blocks some of the ancillary graces you could have received.
Re: "if you do not forgive"
Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2025 10:05 pm
by Obi-Wan Kenobi
Also: Matt 7:2 and parallels. If you are grudging with your forgiveness, so (in a sense) will God be in forgiving you.
Re: "if you do not forgive"
Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2025 5:57 am
by Jack3
Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote: ↑Tue Sep 16, 2025 10:03 pm
Yes, you receive forgiveness. Yes, you get sanctifying grace.
So are you disagreeing with Doom:
Doom wrote: ↑Sun Sep 14, 2025 8:33 am
In the Our Father, it says, "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." This definitely seems like a condition.
Doom wrote: ↑Tue Sep 16, 2025 9:28 am
Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us
The implication is clear,
if you do not forgive you will not be forgiven
If I may press further, it also takes me back to my own previous question:
Jack3 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 12, 2025 10:25 pm
So is that not to be taken literally, not teaching us about how and when God forgives; but merely an exhortation to forgive others?
Re: "if you do not forgive"
Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2025 6:19 pm
by Obi-Wan Kenobi
It is not meant as an absolute: "If you don't forgive anyone anything, you can't be forgiven." But it's not a mere exhortation. As I said before, a severe and willing failure to forgive does block forgiveness, and even a less severe failure impedes it.
BTW, I gather from listening to podcasts and reading books that demons love unforgiveness.
Re: "if you do not forgive"
Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2025 8:21 am
by Doom
When I said that refusal to forgive is not always a mortal sin this is because some things are really difficult to forgive, have any of us forgiven the 19 hijackers on 9-11?
And, even if someone wants to forgive, it may be possible only to do so imperfectly. There’s lots of things where someone might say “I want to forgive, but I can’t let go”, sometimes the desire to forgive is all one can muster up.
Re: "if you do not forgive"
Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2025 1:28 pm
by Jack3
Thank you