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I've long assumed that the main reason the Gather hymnal and the publications of Oregon Catholic Press were so awful was that the writers were all modernists and dissenters, and they have something against traditional liturgical music.

Every time I hear a terrible song in Mass (which, unfortunately, is nearly every song in every Mass I attend), I take note of the name of the composer.

But I have been researching the people whom I associate with terrible music. David Hass, Dan Schutte, Marty Haugen, Michael Joncas, Bernadette Farrell, and others, and while Marty Haugen is United Church of Christ (probably the most liberal denomination there is), all the rest are Catholic.

Oddly enough, most of them are from the diocese of Minneapolis/St Paul, although Bernadette Farrell is British.

I cannot find any evidence that any of them hold any liberal or dissenting views, except Marty Haugen, who belongs to the most liberal denomination on planet Earth, and most of the songs, while mediocre, consist of little more than paraphrasing scripture and don't seem to contain any explicit heresies, except the annoying tendency to speak as God, which while gauche probably isn't actually heretical.

And yet their music is so uniformly awful. The question is "Why?"

Is the music really that bad, or is it just the terrible production in most Churches, with bad piano or (God forbid guitar, compounded by out-of-tune singing and bad arrangements? If these were performed with a pipe organ and a choir that knew what they were doing, would they actually sound decent?

The St. Louis Jesuits were not models of orthodoxy.

The idea back in the 70s and 80s was that "folk" music was somehow more authentic, and so that was the idiom that was chosen by most people writing in that era.

not super relevant to the post but even though I was young (and clueless) a the time (late 70s, early 80s), I distinctly remember a priest at the parish I (mostly) grew up in sitting on a chair in the middle of the church, playing classical guitar and singing a John Denver song in the middle of Mass. I wish I was old enough to remember the setting clearly. And I'm not sure of this priest's religious background or formation. And though I enjoy a lot of John Denver music for other reasons, I understand father's point as 'folksy' seemed to have gotten a hold. It wasn't just limited to the poor music sung as part of the Mass.

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote: ↑Sun Sep 28, 2025 6:34 pm The St. Louis Jesuits were not models of orthodoxy.

The idea back in the 70s and 80s was that "folk" music was somehow more authentic, and so that was the idiom that was chosen by most people writing in that era.

Of the people I mentioned, none of them are Jesuits or from St Lous, they are almost all from Minneapolis.

The music is often really bad and based on secular sources. "Here I am, Lord" is based on the theme song to The Brady Bunch, while there is also the "Mass of Creation" often mocked as the "My Littie Pony Mass" because the "Glory to God in the Highest" is based on the theme song to "My Little Pony Friendship is Magic", another song (I can't remember which) is based on "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" by Gordon Lightfoot. And yet, despite the bad music, the lyrics are usually just scripture verses, nothing really offensive, except against good taste.

Doom wrote: ↑Sun Sep 28, 2025 6:55 pm

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote: ↑Sun Sep 28, 2025 6:34 pm The St. Louis Jesuits were not models of orthodoxy.

The idea back in the 70s and 80s was that "folk" music was somehow more authentic, and so that was the idiom that was chosen by most people writing in that era.

Of the people I mentioned, none of them are Jesuits or from St Lous, they are almost all from Minneapolis.

Dan Schutte was a Jesuit seminarian in St Louis when he composed 'Here I Am Lord'.

The music is often really bad and based on secular sources. "Here I am, Lord" is based on the theme song to The Brady Bunch, while there is also the "Mass of Creation" often mocked as the "My Littie Pony Mass" because the "Glory to God in the Highest" is based on the theme song to "My Little Pony Friendship is Magic", another song (I can't remember which) is based on "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" by Gordon Lightfoot. And yet, despite the bad music, the lyrics are usually just scripture verses, nothing really offensive, except against good taste.

What is your source for this information? It really doesn't sound believable?

https://catholicweekly.com.au/dan-schut ... i-am-lord/

At the end of the day, modern hymns are very loved by most people across the globe and across cultures. Although they may not be to your taste, they aren't objectively 'terrible'. Would you agree?

If you want a good look at the parlous state of liturgical music, read Why Catholics Can't Sing: The Culture of Catholicism and the Triumph of Bad Taste by Thomas Day.

Here's one of my favorite lines:

"An anonymous wag once defined the modern liturgical expert as 'an affliction sent by God, so that those Catholics who have not had the opportunity to suffer for their faith might not be deprived of the opportunity to do so."

HL Mencken, of all people, had this to say about what used to be our indisputable magnificence:

"Rome, indeed, has not only preserved the original poetry in Christianity; it has also made capital additions to that poetry - for example, the poetry of the saints, of Mary, and of the liturgy itself. A solemn high mass must be a thousand times as impressive, to a man with any genuine religious sense in him, as the most powerful sermon ever roared under the big-top...In the face of such overwhelming beauty it is not necessary to belabor the faithful with logic; they are better convinced by letting them alone."

As it turns out, I found out I wrote a bang-up book review. You can read it here.https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-revi ... tl?ie=UTF8

The resemblance between Here I Am and the Brady Bunch theme is undeniable, but I don't know that there's any good reason to think that there is an intentional connection.

Listen to the Muppet Show theme song, and then notice how the melody of the middle part sounds like "Santa Claus is Coming to Town".

Also, the "My Little Pony" Mass is not the Mass of Creation (lamentable though it is); it's the "Mass of Christ the Savior."

Stella wrote: ↑Sun Sep 28, 2025 8:01 pm

Doom wrote: ↑Sun Sep 28, 2025 6:55 pm

What is your source for this information? It really doesn't sound believable?

You mean what evidence besides the fact that they are literally almost the same tune and that it is really easy to sing the lyrics to the Brady Bunch theme song to "Here I am, Lord" without changing the tune?


As for the "My Littie Pony" mass, you be the judge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpbDkVQzVKc

Note, that "My Little Pony" debuted in 1984, several decades before this Mass setting was written.

Read the comments and you will see several people noting the similarity between "Here I am, Lord" and the Brady Bunch theme song. I'm not the only one who has noticed it.

Also note, GIA publications, the main Catholic music publisher in the English language, decided to delete all the songs by composer Daniel Elder from because he denounced setting a courthouse on fire during the George Floyd riots of 2020. GIA denounced the statement as "racist" and a "white supremacist" when Elder held his ground on his position that riots and arson are bad and refused to apologize. GIA issued a statement calling him racist, and in 2021, all his hymns were removed from the hymnal

Did you know that it is racist and white supremacist to be against arson? GIA publications think so.

I still don't understand why GIA has such a monopoly on hymnals. I's what we use here in NY Archdiocese, and have for decades. So, I'm assuming that parishes don't have much of a say in what they order.

anawim wrote: ↑Mon Sep 29, 2025 5:18 am I still don't understand why GIA has such a monopoly on hymnals. I's what we use here in NY Archdiocese, and have for decades. So, I'm assuming that parishes don't have much of a say in what they order.

For the same reason that there is only iPhone and Android, you know it didn't use to be that way; there used to be tons of options.

There was the iPhone, Android, Blackberry, Windows Mobile, WebOS (Palm), Symbian (Nokia), you had a ton of options. Now there are no options at all, just a duopoly. Why? Because building and maintaining an entire ecosystem, and keeping it active, is hard. You have your app developers; they don't want to make 7 different versions of the same app, so they would choose one OS to develop for, and everything would be fragmented because a great app that was available for one platform wouldn't be available for another, and at the end of the day there aren't enough developers to go arond, so one by one all the alternatives collapsed.

Now imagine 7 different companies were producing Catholic missalettes, each company had its own talent, its own writers, its own composers, etc. A popular song would be available for only one company, but not the 6 others, and when a parish bought into an ecosystem, they wouldn't know what their selection would be. At the end of the day, there aren't enough writers and composers of liturgical music to spread them over a bunch of different companies. And just like with smartphones, one company would be all the big names, and the rest would be left with scraps. The ones that only had scraps would gradually disappear.

This is, in fact, exactly what did happen, and is why GIA Publications, publishing songs copyrighted by Oregon Catholic Press, is the only option left.

Doom wrote: ↑Sun Sep 28, 2025 11:40 pm Did you know that it is racist and white supremacist to be against arson? GIA publications think so.

Incredible. Out of curiosity, I looked up this publication site. The front page asked "Where do you want to go?" Well, so many options! How about Elmira, New York? I've always wanted to visit the Mark Twain museum.

Okay, let's get serious. I clicked on sacred hymns. The site has a "sounding board" (get it?) for clickers to sound off on whatever topic is out there. The latest is about "Celebrating Women's History Month." There's another for "Celebrating Black History Month." I didn't have the pluck to find out if they celebrate anything in June. Coz, you know . . .

Doom wrote: ↑Sun Sep 28, 2025 11:40 pm Also note, GIA publications, the main Catholic music publisher in the English language, decided to delete all the songs by composer Daniel Elder from because he denounced setting a courthouse on fire during the George Floyd riots of 2020. GIA denounced the statement as "racist" and a "white supremacist" when Elder held his ground on his position that riots and arson are bad and refused to apologize. GIA issued a statement calling him racist, and in 2021, all his hymns were removed from the hymnal

Did you know that it is racist and white supremacist to be against arson? GIA publications think so.

I couldn't find the composers post online but there must be more to it than that. People condemn riots and arson regularly online without being cancelled. Do you know what the original post actually said?

Yes, I know exactly what it said. GIA Publications is a crazy woke publisher that publishes things like "Gay Pride Masses"

Stella wrote: ↑Sun Sep 28, 2025 8:01 pmAlthough they may not be to your taste, they aren't objectively 'terrible'. Would you agree?

Well, no. There are good modern hymns, and then there are banal words with banal music, or hymns that tell us how wonderful we are and how lucky Jesus is to have disciples like us, or are outright heretical ("Ashes", anyone?). And often people like them because they are familiar,

Having bemoaned, several times, the dismal state of Catholic music as practiced and presented today, let me refresh my arguments. Compared to much traditional and, well, Protestant music, the music chosen is ... stultifying. The organist/pianist is mediocre. The choir is as to nails on a chalkboard. We never have anything like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihJAJA4ibEs

From time to time, I listen to old time Protestant hymns. Which are, to me, familiar, but also inspiring. Such as:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSif77IVQdY

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote: ↑Tue Sep 30, 2025 10:14 pm

Stella wrote: ↑Sun Sep 28, 2025 8:01 pmAlthough they may not be to your taste, they aren't objectively 'terrible'. Would you agree?

Well, no. There are good modern hymns, and then there are banal words with banal music, or hymns that tell us how wonderful we are and how lucky Jesus is to have disciples like us, or are outright heretical ("Ashes", anyone?). And often people like them because they are familiar,

Firstly, why is familiar bad? The reasoning behind cultural Masses is that familiar is meaningful or resonates with the culture.

Having a solid reference is good to discuss. What part of the hymn Ashes is heretical?

We rise again from ashes,
from the good we've failed to do.
We rise again from ashes,
to create ourselves anew.
If all our world is ashes,
then must our lives be true,
an offering of ashes, an offering to you.

We offer you our failures,
we offer you attempts,
the gifts not fully given,
the dreams not fully dreamt.
Give our stumblings direction,
give our visions wider view,
an offering of ashes, an offering to you.

Then rise again from ashes,
let healing come to pain,
though spring has turned to winter,
and sunshine turned to rain.
The rain we'll use for growing,
and create the world anew
from an offering of ashes, an offering to you.

Thanks be to the Father,
who made us like himself.
Thanks be to the Son,
who saved us by his death.
Thanks be to the Spirit
who creates the world anew
from an offering of ashes, an offering to you.

What part isn't heretical?

“We rise again from ashes to make ourselves anew”

Regeneration is not OUR work it is the work of God. This is Pelegianism at best and New Age at worst. In fact, it sounds like reincarnation.

Moreover, we do not offer anything to God except for the sacrifice of the Eucharist, and we can not even do that on ouit own.

I didn’t say that familiar was bad. Familiar also doesn’t mean good.

I would beg to differ from Doom in saying that we can offer things to God outside of the Eucharist, but they're only effective when uplifted by grace.

Another flaw of "Ashes" that it has in common with many other modern pieces is that it's focused on us rather than on God. The first lines, of course, show that the clearest, but throughout, it's mostly about what we are doing rather than what the Lord is doing. This alone is not enough to disqualify something unless carried to excess (e.g., "Anthem"), but it is a pervasive problem.

And to add on the the conversation around familiar pieces -- note the copyright dates. They weren't familiar to anyone fifty years ago. People learned them and grew familiar, and there's no reason at all that the same can't happen to other and better pieces, even resuscitated older ones, today.