The Catholic Message Board

Does God love everyone?

Including the devil and his demons?

Including the souls in hell?

Insofar as they exist, yes. That they have so badly misused that existence, no.

I agree they misused their existence.

Is there a Church teaching about this somewhere? Perhaps a papal encyclical or ecumenical council?

Not that I know of.

BobCatholic wrote: ↑Sat Nov 25, 2023 10:24 pm I agree they misused their existence.

Is there a Church teaching about this somewhere? Perhaps a papal encyclical or ecumenical council?

Why does basic common sense and good logic somehow now need the backing of a Church document of some kind? What exactly are you getting at?

Wisdom 11:24.

Doom wrote: ↑Sun Nov 26, 2023 8:47 am
Why does basic common sense and good logic somehow now need the backing of a Church document of some kind? What exactly are you getting at?

What I'm trying to get is evidence I can use against someone who says that God's love transforms people into the better. If that were true, none of them would be in hell.

BobCatholic wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 11:42 pm

Doom wrote: ↑Sun Nov 26, 2023 8:47 am
Why does basic common sense and good logic somehow now need the backing of a Church document of some kind? What exactly are you getting at?

What I'm trying to get is evidence I can use against someone who says that God's love transforms people into the better. If that were true, none of them would be in hell.

They are correct. Your conclusion does not follow.

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 8:34 am

They are correct. Your conclusion does not follow.
[/quote]

Please explain.

If God's love makes one better - they become better - and that means they become a saint. This means they go to heaven.

If they go to hell, they're not better, they're worse.

That sounds like Calvinist “limited atonement” logic that Christ died only for the elect that God loves and he is indifferent about everyone else.

BobCatholic wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 10:24 pm If God's love makes one better - they become better - and that means they become a saint. This means they go to heaven.

Why does being better mean that one becomes a saint?

peregrinator wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 7:25 am

BobCatholic wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 10:24 pm If God's love makes one better - they become better - and that means they become a saint. This means they go to heaven.

Why does being better mean that one becomes a saint?

Because God says so. He says saints are better than the damned. He wants only saints in heaven.

Doom wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 6:50 am That sounds like Calvinist “limited atonement” logic that Christ died only for the elect that God loves and he is indifferent about everyone else.

Yes! This is a great point. This is one reason why the idea that God does not love the damned rubbed me the wrong way.

I remember reading somewhere if God stopped loving us, we'd immediately disappeared. (I don't recall the source...)

BobCatholic wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:47 pm

peregrinator wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 7:25 am

BobCatholic wrote: ↑Tue Nov 28, 2023 10:24 pm If God's love makes one better - they become better - and that means they become a saint. This means they go to heaven.

Why does being better mean that one becomes a saint?

Because God says so. He says saints are better than the damned. He wants only saints in heaven.

Saints are better than the damned. But also, some saints are better than others, and some of the damned are worse than others.

The servant who knew his master’s will and did not do it will receive a severe beating while the servant who did not know his master’s will and does what would normally earn a severe beating will receive a light beating.

BobCatholic wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 11:42 pm

What I'm trying to get is evidence I can use against someone who says that God's love transforms people into the better. If that were true, none of them would be in hell.

Well, what I would say (and someone can definitely correct me of I'm wrong) is that God's love would transform them, and it could be for the better given that they are properly predisposed.

But it can also transform them for the worse if they're not.

Look at Pharaoh in the Exodus story where it says that God "hardened the heart of Pharaoh." The same thing happens all throughout Scripture when people who are enamored of their own beliefs and way of doing things are encounter by the prophets or even by Jesus.

One of my favorite lines comes from Teresa of Avila where she says something to the effect of "the Pharisees and Sadducees had the privilege of being taught directly by the Savior and it still didn't do them any favors."

Heck, look what happens when you walk by any secular Leftist in front of a Planned Parenthood clinic with a cross or a placard that's against abortion. Or when a parent dealing with a rage-fueled toddler having a temper tantrum who's not getting their way tries to love their child. The more the parent tries to love the child the kid just gets increasingly more angry and violent.

I would say that the person saying this is only looking at one side of the issue while ignoring the other possibility.

BobCatholic wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:52 pm

Doom wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 6:50 am That sounds like Calvinist “limited atonement” logic that Christ died only for the elect that God loves and he is indifferent about everyone else.

Yes! This is a great point. This is one reason why the idea that God does not love the damned rubbed me the wrong way.

I remember reading somewhere if God stopped loving us, we'd immediately disappeared. (I don't recall the source...)

You are misunderstanding me. I am saying that your view sounds like Limited Atonement. The argument that if God loved everyone then everyone would be saved is the argument for Limited Atonement.

I think his error is:

God loves us because we're good (or better)

instead of the correct:

We're good (or better) because God loves us

Insofar as the demons and the damned existence, they have a measure of goodness, which comes from God. They are unable to grow in goodness, which is not the case for living human beings. For a willing human being, God's love produces a growth in goodness.

Doom wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 5:31 pm

BobCatholic wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:52 pm

Doom wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2023 6:50 am That sounds like Calvinist “limited atonement” logic that Christ died only for the elect that God loves and he is indifferent about everyone else.

Yes! This is a great point. This is one reason why the idea that God does not love the damned rubbed me the wrong way.

I remember reading somewhere if God stopped loving us, we'd immediately disappeared. (I don't recall the source...)

You are misunderstanding me. I am saying that your view sounds like Limited Atonement. The argument that if God loved everyone then everyone would be saved is the argument for Limited Atonement.

No, my view is that Jesus atoned for everyone.

The argument that if God loved everyone then everyone would be saved is the argument for Limited Atonement.

That's the argument for Universalism. I reject that.