Confusion over Luminous Mysteries of Light

[RCastle]

Sorry I wasn't sure where to post this. Currently i am undecided regarding the Luminous Mysteries. I do not wish to inspire divisiveness or uncivil discussion but am really feeling pulled in two directions when it comes to the Mysteries of Light.

I have a very tradition loving side of myself that cannot let go of the need to follow the traditional pattern of Joyful, Suffering, & Glorious Mysteries. While at the same time I also recognize the Church is not backwards looking but builds on what it has received on the past to continue to nurture the faithful in the present. I've watched Fr. Calloway's talks on youtube where he describes the Luminous Mysteries as addressing current issues in the Church and St. George Preca being source Pope St. John Paul II used for the Luminous Mysteries.

The fact they address current issues in the Church seems to speak well for them while two canonized Saints using them in prayer also seems to speak well for them. I know they are recommended by Pope St. John Paul II, as an optional addition to the Mysteries. Yet I am still feeling drawn towards keeping the original form.

Again I do not have a decided mind on the situation, only trying to detail some of the reasons i feel pulled by both sides of the argument. Let me convey some of the traditional rationales for be pulled away from the Luminous Mysteries to provide a fuller picture. Please keep in mind as I do this i remain undecided. I have occasionally experimented with the Luminous Mysteries, but have focussed on the Traditional ones, with the Suffering Mysteries being the "bread and butter" of my devotional life.

Ok So Firstly There is the "Marian Psalter" concept. Being the 150 Aves/Hail Marys are a direct parallel to the 150 Psalms (of David). The other concept is there being a Trinitarian arrangement (three sets of mysteries). There are other rationales but i want to keep this balanced(i prolly failed, sorry).

One thing I would reemphasize is I do NOT want to foster uncivil or disrespectful discussion. I am troubled by my lack of decision on the matter . I would appreciate a well reasoned civil conversation/debate to help me decide.

[Dorothy B.]

The suggestion for specific days to meditate on the various mysteries is not set in stone. It is not like praying The Liturgy of the Hours where we have a book and a certain format to follow. (I llove the LOTH.

You can meditate on whatever sets of mysteries you want to. Because I am homebound I like to turn on internet rosaries and pray with those.

Peace,

Dorothy

[gherkin]

I don't pray the Luminous Mysteries. It ain't no big thing.

[Doom]

I generally don't use them if I have any say in the matter, but pretty much all public Rosaries or Rosary apps such as Hallow have them, and it seems childish and petty to refuse to participate. But for my own private devotion, I avoid them. Another reason for the three sets of mysteries is that they correspond to the three theological virtues, faith, hope, and love.

When they were first introduced in 2003, I thought for sure they would be forgotten in a couple of years, yet they seem to be very popular and widely used, for reasons which utterly escape me. Yet, when they were announced, John Paul II knew they were a radical departure from tradition, and he went out of his way to describe them as "optional" which is a word that has never been used to describe the other three sets.

[Riverboat]

[T]hey seem to be very popular and widely used, for reasons which utterly escape me.

What's not to like? A mystery that directly involves our Lady reminding her Son that "they have no more wine" reminds us of the sacredness of marriage. It also comes in handy to point out to those who object to our veneration of Our Lady that, after all, she tells the stewards to "do what He tells you to do."

I could go on. And that's just ONE mystery.

[peregrinator]

Finding their popularity odd doesn't necessarily mean that one doesn't like them. I find their popularity odd, not because I do not like them, but because they break the traditional cycle of Joyful, Sorrowful, and Glorious on the weekdays. My likes and dislikes are actually irrelevant.

In any case I'll pray the Luminous Mysteries during a public rosary where I don't get to choose, but not otherwise.

[Doom]

[T]hey seem to be very popular and widely used, for reasons which utterly escape me.

What's not to like? A mystery that directly involves our Lady reminding her Son that "they have no more wine" reminds us of the sacredness of marriage. It also comes in handy to point out to those who object to our veneration of Our Lady that, after all, she tells the stewards to "do what He tells you to do."

I could go on. And that's just ONE mystery.

i think the mysteries are, to put it nicely, weird and tend to be vague and nonspecific, "The Proclamation of the KIngdom" isn't a specific event, it is at best a generic description of the public ministry of Jesus. And what does it have to do with "light"

[RCastle]

What's not to like? A mystery that directly involves our Lady reminding her Son that "they have no more wine" reminds us of the sacredness of marriage. It also comes in handy to point out to those who object to our veneration of Our Lady that, after all, she tells the stewards to "do what He tells you to do."

I could go on. And that's just ONE mystery.

I value what you said regarding the Mystery of the Wedding at Cana. Will you please comment further on the Marian significance of the Luminous Mysteries? Some have argued Our Lady's lack of involvement in the Luminous Mysteries should rule out their inclusion in the Rosary.

[Riverboat]

i think the mysteries are, to put it nicely, weird and tend to be vague and nonspecific, "The Proclamation of the KIngdom" isn't a specific event, it is at best a generic description of the public ministry of Jesus. And what does it have to do with "light"

I don't follow you at all. Every single mystery of the Mysteries of Light are specifically mentioned in the Scriptures, including the "Proclamation of the Kingdom."

This is from the Dominican Friars of England and Wales. The Dominicans, of course, know a thing or two about the Rosary: "'The time is fulfilled and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the Gospel' (Mk 1:15). This Luminous Mystery can be understood very broadly as the whole public ministry of Jesus of Nazareth, lasting three years, but for the sake of meditation during the Rosary we can focus on the very beginning [emphasis mine]. That is where we see the essence of the proclamation of the kingdom of God." - https://www.english.op.org/godzdogz/thi ... onversion/

Our Lord's Baptism, the Miracle at Cana, the Transfiguration, the Institution of the Eucharist, and the aforementioned Proclamation - all there in the Gospels.

As for why "light"? They do illuminate. Other than that, what would you call them? Like most people, I was hesitant at first. The fact that Pope Saint John Paul II proposed them lent considerable heft, and he allowed plenty of leeway as for acceptance. The more I meditate on them, the more I appreciate them.

[Riverboat]

Some have argued Our Lady's lack of involvement in the Luminous Mysteries should rule out their inclusion in the Rosary.

She was not with him for the Agony in the Garden, the Scourging at the Pillar or the Crowning with Thorns. Nor was she there for the Resurrection.

We believe Our Lady was with Jesus every step of the way, albeit not necessary physically present.

[Doom]

i think the mysteries are, to put it nicely, weird and tend to be vague and nonspecific, "The Proclamation of the KIngdom" isn't a specific event, it is at best a generic description of the public ministry of Jesus. And what does it have to do with "light"

I don't follow you at all. Every single mystery of the Mysteries of Light is specifically mentioned in the Scriptures, including the "Proclamation of the Kingdom."
.

Which specific incident from the gospels is it? Give me the exact chapter and verse, please. And what does it have to do with Our Lady, who is supposed the chief focus of every mystery?

[Riverboat]

With all due respect, I already answered that, and provided a link.

[Alexandros]

The issue with the “Luminous Mysteries” is the attempt to shoehorn them into the Dominican Rosary/Our Lady’s Psalter as that destroys its intrinsic character (150 Hail Marys). The other problem is the haughty justification for bringing about its existence Church-wide in the first place.

I will start with the latter and I am adapting what I already wrote elsewhere on the subject (I apologize for typos and bad grammar).

John Paul II wrote:

This is not to say, however, that the method cannot be improved. Such is the intent of the addition of the new series of mysteria lucis to the overall cycle of mysteries and of the few suggestions which I am proposing in this Letter regarding its manner of recitation.

...

I believe, however, that to bring out fully the Christological depth of the Rosary it would be suitable to make an addition to the traditional pattern which, while left to the freedom of individuals and communities, could broaden it to include the mysteries of Christ's public ministry between his Baptism and his Passion...

Consequently, for the Rosary to become more fully a “compendium of the Gospel,” it is fitting to add... a meditation on certain particularly significant moments in his public ministry (the mysteries of light). This addition of these new mysteries, without prejudice to any essential aspect of the prayer's traditional format, is meant to give it fresh life and to enkindle renewed interest in the Rosary's place within Christian spirituality as a true doorway to the depths of the Heart of Christ, ocean of joy and of light, of suffering and of glory.

https://www.vatican.va/content/john-pau ... ariae.html

John Paul II is effectively stating that there can be an improvement to the intrinsic structure of a prayer that is 800 years old, given to us by Our Lady (if you choose to believe that it was given to St. Dominic or at least its current structure was given to him), and reconfirmed by Our Lady numerous times. First to Blessed Alan de la Roche with the 15 promises (reflecting the 15 mysteries) and Our Lady of Fatima who explicitly confirmed the 15 mysteries in Her messages. John Paul II further pushes this claim by stating his new mysteries would make the Rosary more fully a “compendium” of the Gospel.

Herein lies the overzealous and misguided assumption about the traditional Holy Rosary by John Paul II: That its application and usage should necessarily result in an evolution where additional meditations on the life of Christ must be added. This conviction is so strong that it literally alters the foundational structure of a prayer that has persisted 800 years, dares to claim improvement upon what Our Lady herself has confirmed, and potentially harms the 15 promises if one prays the Luminous mysteries solely on Thursdays. Why did not any Pope or true saint ever consider such improvements until the 21st century? Why did Our Lady not do this Herself?

The answer to these questions is simple; the Rosary reflects the Psalter and that it simply does not need to have more “Christological depth.” Or in other words, it need not to be an exhaustive demonstration of the life of Christ, and certainly if not exhaustive, it does not need to be expanded to destroy its traditional structure. This is further reinforced by the fact that heaven itself confirmed the structure of the prayer. Who dares think they can come along and “improve” a prayer from Our Lady that has persisted in the same structure for centuries?

The traditional Rosary is sufficient. Not every single prayer, devotion, and liturgy needs to be filled up with options so that the faithful, who are apparently so bored with everything, can be reinvigorated.

If there is a disinterest in the Rosary, then why take aim at the Rosary itself? This implies that the Rosary is at fault, unable to gain interest of those in the present time. It certainly was sufficient for various times periods over 800 years. Change for the sake of disinterest will yield endless change and novelty, instead of focusing on praying and doing penance for the conversion of souls. Novelty begets novelty, and the accumulation of novelty weakens the faith.

Furthermore, using the logic of expansion for the sake of “Christological depth,” the Rosary might as well have 350 Hail Marys, or 35 individual mysteries, one 5-decade Rosary for each day of the week. It can be expanded to cover even more events in the Gospel because more is better. Never mind the novelty. Never mind destroying the traditional prayer structure that goes back to Old Testament times from inspired scripture. Never mind that only the traditional 15 mysteries have the promises attached to them. None of that matters because we sit atop history and can judge what things need to be improved, even if it was confirmed to us by the Mother of God Herself.


Rosary’s Structure

The Psalter is comprised of 150 prayers as seen in the book of Psalms. Traditionally the 150 Psalms were prayed by priests and other religious, and to a certain extent they still do this today. The laity developed their own various forms of a Psalter, such as praying 150 Our Fathers. The traditional Rosary, or Our Lady’s Psalter, is thus logically comprised of 150 Hail Marys which in turn are divided into three parts: the Joyful mysteries, the Sorrowful mysteries, and the Glorious mysteries.

Later in the 15th century, Blessed Alan de la Roche had a vision of Our lady who gave 15 promises to those to recite Her Rosary. This is the same Rosary that confirmed to St. Dominic that is comprised of 150 Halil Harys. The 15 promises reflect the 15 mysteries. Once again, heaven itself confirms the Psalter form of the Rosary and attached special graces to those who devoutly recite it.

Finally at Fatima Our Lady gave a further promise of special grace in addition to confirming the Rosary as 15 decades:

“I promise to assist at the hour of death with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who on the First Saturdays of five consecutive months, confess, receive Holy Communion, and keep me company for fifteen minutes, meditating on the fifteen mysteries of the Rosary.”

This short exposition is to drive home a particular point that the traditional Rosary must have a Psalter structure to be referred to as “The Rosary” (the Dominican Rosary). Other types of Rosaries exist, but when we speak of *the* Rosary we are referring to the prayer that Our Lady Herself gave us that persisted for 800 years in its Psalter form. Otherwise, it cannot be called Our Lady’s Psalter or “The Rosary” in our present context.

Hence, the Luminous Mysteries by themselves are not a part of Our Lady’s Psalter and they do not carry with them special promises.

The 20-decade cycle also disrupts the weekly flow of the traditional Rosary where the mysteries are said chronologically starting on Monday and then repeat (Joyful, Sorrowful, and then Glorious). The exception would be Sunday. This is because Sunday is the New Day or Eighth Day, and it usually receives the Glorious mysteries because it is the day Our Lord was Resurrected. Although the Sunday mysteries can change depending on the liturgical season.

While at the same time I also recognize the Church is not backwards looking but builds on what it has received on the past to continue to nurture the faithful in the present.

The Church as in the hierarchy or organic development from the Church as a whole? What has been handed down and developed should not violate continuity. 800 years of the Dominican Rosary/Mary’s Psalter being 150 Hail Marys, representing Biblical prayer the Psalms, is interrupted by the “Luminous Mysteries.”

However:

On can pray the “Luminous Mysteries” on their own, apart from the Rosary, as to not interrupt its intrinsic structure.

Also, since other types of Rosaries exist, if one wants to take the 15 mysteries and tack on 5 more, then it should be called something else. It should not be conflated with “the Rosary” (because the context is the Dominican Rosary) as it loses its intrinsic Psalm-structure, which was handed down through centuries and confirmed by heaven itself.

The fact that Pope John Paul II proposed them lent considerable heft, and he allowed plenty of leeway as for acceptance.

The fact they address current issues in the Church seems to speak well for them while two canonized Saints using them in prayer also seems to speak well for them.

This is not really a good reason. Modern canonized “saints” can do or say things that are simply outrageous against the faith. E.g. JPII’s Assisi meetings (helped people break the 1st commandment) or how he allowed pagan rituals to be performed on himself. No one here is going to help people to start breaking commandments or invite American Indians over to do rituals with feathers. Or in other words, just because someone who received a modern canonization did it doesn't mean its free from error, imprudence, or impiety.

[Alexandros]

More Strange Intentions


Here is more from JPII showing the thought process behind the changes:

This is not to say, however, that the method cannot be improved. Such is the intent of the addition of the new series of mysteria lucis to the overall cycle of mysteries and of the few suggestions which I am proposing in this Letter regarding its manner of recitation. These suggestions, while respecting the well-established structure of this prayer, are intended to help the faithful to understand it in the richness of its symbolism and in harmony with the demands of daily life. Otherwise, there is a risk that the Rosary would not only fail to produce the intended spiritual effects, but even that the beads, with which it is usually said, could come to be regarded as some kind of amulet or magic object, thereby radically distorting their meaning and function.

(Rosarium Virginis Mariae, 28)

In the succeeding paragraphs of chapter three of Rosarium Virginis Mariae, John Paul II goes on to list his suggestions to enrich the recitation of the Rosary (apart from the “Luminous Mysteries”). These include things like reciting scripture before each mystery or using an icon as a visual aid. Please note: these suggestions are fine; I am not arguing against them.

However, in the above quote he states that without these suggestions (or undertaking those like them) there is a “risk” that a person will not receive grace from the Rosary and a “risk” that it will degrade into a superstition, like a “magic object.” This is a violation of the first commandment.

At face value it implies that Our Lady and numerous true saints confirmed, recommended, and prayed something that had risks of superstition and loss of grace. Apparently for almost 800 years many of the faithful were at risk because they did not do anything like the enrichments JPII lists. Does this not sound absurd?

JPII also said:

Perhaps too, there are some who fear that the Rosary is somehow unecumenical because of its distinctly Marian character. Yet the Rosary clearly belongs to the kind of veneration of the Mother of God described by the Council: a devotion directed to the Christological centre of the Christian faith, in such a way that “when the Mother is honoured, the Son ... is duly known, loved and glorified”. If properly revitalized, the Rosary is an aid and certainly not a hindrance to ecumenism!

(Rosarium Virginis Mariae, 4)


If the Rosary is “properly revitalized,” which includes John Paul II’s recommendations, then the Rosary can become an aid to ecumenism. If that is true, then what is the Rosary without this revitalization? A hinderance?

So here we have John Paul II’s justification and recommendations for changes in the Rosary:

1. “Luminous Mysteries” are an “improvement” to the Rosary. It took 800 years to improve it by violating its intrinsic structure. Would you go around and assume you can “improve” something used for 800 years by true saints AND confirmed by Our Lady herself? Wouldn’t we just receive what has been handed down with piety and respect, and not attempt to harm its intrinsic structure?

2. Use the additional recommendations of John Paul II or “run the risk” of treating the Rosary like a magic object. Apparently since I do not follow any of JPII’s recommendations I am constantly running a risk of treating the Rosary as a superstitious object.

3. Improve the Rosary so it can help with ecumenism, because without improving the Rosary, it can be a hindrance for protestants to convert.

Do any of these sound ridiculous ladies and gentlemen?

Why would you adhere to a devotion that has THIS at its foundation?

[Doom]

With all due respect, I already answered that, and provided a link.

And your answer is exactly what I said "A generic description of the entire ministry of Jesus" How is this a fitting subject for meditation? It's too vague and nonspecific, exactly as I said and as you have confirmed.

So there are multiple problems with the Luminous mysteries:

It ruins the structure of the Rosary as "Our Lady's Psalter" 150 Hail Marys for 150 Psalms

It ruins the symbolism of 3 groups of mysteries representing the three theological virtues faith, hope, and love.

It ruins the symbolism of 3 groups of mysteries for the three persons of the Trinity

It was imposed "top-down" by the Pope when the Rosary evolved gradually in an organic manner over centuries from the ground up

The description "Mysteries of Light" is much vague to serve as a theme for a set of mysteries

These mysteries have little if anything to do with Our Lady, who is the focus of the other 15 traditional mysteries

It also ruins the traditional rotation of praying the Rosary, with two days a week for each mystery from Monday through Saturday with Sunday alternating according to liturgical seasson

[Kage_ar]

My two coppers...

The Rosary is approved and worldwide, it is indulgenced, yet, it is still a private devotion. A good priest once told me that if I have one mystery that is really speaking to me, keep praying that one (I prayed the Finding In The Temple for a year) One is free to meditate on any mysteries you want - you can even make up your own!! It is always good to meditate on the life of Christ.

Also, I remember a Confirmation prep student who called them the "Gluminous Mysteries".

[Doom]

My two coppers...

The Rosary is approved and worldwide, it is indulgenced, yet, it is still a private devotion. A good priest once told me that if I have one mystery that is really speaking to me, keep praying that one (I prayed the Finding In The Temple for a year) One is free to meditate on any mysteries you want - you can even make up your own!! It is always good to meditate on the life of Christ.

Also, I remember a Confirmation prep student who called them the "Gluminous Mysteries".

There is room for considerable variation in how you do it, and in every parish, I have ever attended that had public recitation of the Rosary, they did it a little differently. But that doesn't mean you can just make up your own mysteries and do whatever you want. The Rosary is a defined, Church-approved prayer, its form was defined by Pope Pius V in 1569 in his bull "Consueverunt Romani Pontifices", you can't just make up whatever you want and call it a Rosary. The Rosary is the prayer of the Church, it is not "private" in the sense that you wish to interpret it. Yes, there is room for a degree of local variation, but the Rosary is not something that a single person can randomly re-invent.

[peregrinator]

Well, to distinguish, one is certainly free to pray Our Fathers and Hail Marys while meditating on whatever mystery one wants. But that's not really "the Rosary" and also wouldn't qualify for the indulgences attached to the Rosary itself (and the Rosary is the most highly indulgenced prayer in the Latin Church).

[Doom]

Well, to distinguish, one is certainly free to pray Our Fathers and Hail Marys while meditating on whatever mystery one wants. But that's not really "the Rosary" and also wouldn't qualify for the indulgences attached to the Rosary itself (and the Rosary is the most highly indulgenced prayer in the Latin Church).

Yes, precisely, whatever it is, it is not a Rosary unless you follow at least the rough outline of the approved form.

[Vern Humphrey]

To me, the Luminous Mysteries make sense.

The Joyful Mysteries deal with the Incarnation.
The Sorrowful Mysteries deal with the Crucifixion.
The Glorious Mysteries deal with the Resurrection.

Hey! Wait a minute! What about Jesus TEACHINGS? We definitely need a set of Mysteries for His teachings.