Mary: Immaculately conceived or The Immaculate Conception?

[VeryTas]

The words to Mary from the Holy Spirit out of the mouth of Elizabeth during the Visitation (Luke 1:42) are "Blessed art thou among women" in the Douay-Rheims translation. Many recent English translations render this as a comparative, such as "Most blessed are you among women". But in the original language it is not comparative; it is straightforwardly indicating that among women Mary is the blessed one. Does that make the rest of women "cursed"? Well, it leaves them under an ancient curse (Genesis 3:16), which men have their own version of (Gen. 3:17-19). (I know, nowadays we seem to treat all "curses" as superstitions.)

It is similar to Mary's identifying herself to St. Bernadette as "I am the Immaculate Conception" rather than "I was immaculately conceived", which would have left it open for others besides Mary (and Jesus) to possibly be so conceived. But Bernadette heard what she heard.

[Doom]

It is important to understand that Hebrew does not have superlatives, "good, better, best," etc, so when they wanted to say that someone was the best, or the greatest, or whatnot, they would say "blank is blank among the blanks". For example, they couldn't say "Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback", they would have to say "Tom Brady is great among the quarterbacks."

So "Blessed are you among women" means "Of all the women who have ever lived or ever will live, you are the one who is the most blessed."

But that doesn't imply the Immaculate Conception; if anything implies the Immaculate Conception, it is the Angel's greeting "Hail, Full of Grace", "hail" in ancient usage, just like today, implies deference to someone who is in a state of superiority over oneself, and it implies royalty: "Hail, Caesar". So the first part of the greeting implies that Mary is greater than the archangels, and she is royalty, hence she is the Queen of Heaven. The second part is "Full of Grace.", often watered down as "Favored One" in Protestant translations, which means literally "One who is filled with grace to the maximal degree, from the beginning of your life until its end."The question is, "When is the beginning of life?" This question is the one which led to a controversy over the Immaculate Conception. St Thomas followed Aristotle in holding that life didn't begin until 40 days after conception, so he did not hold to the Immaculate Conception, but held that 40 days after her conception, she was purified of all sin in the womb of Saint Anne. Some of the Eastern Fathers appear to have held that her state of sinlessness began later. including possibly as late as the Annunciation. That Mary sinless "a spotless virgin", was clear as early as the second century, but the question was "When and how"

[VeryTas]

It is important to understand that Hebrew does not have superlatives, "good, better, best," etc, so when they wanted to say that someone was the best, or the greatest, or whatnot, they would say "blank is blank among the blanks". For example, they couldn't say "Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback", they would have to say "Tom Brady is great among the quarterbacks.

But if Luke was inspired to express this superlative in Greek, wouldn't he have done so with a Greek superlative form, in order to translate any Hebrew or Aramaic accurately? But he didn't. As I understand it, the New Testament is inspired in its own "original" language, not another language that it might have drawn from.

[Doom]

It is important to understand that Hebrew does not have superlatives, "good, better, best," etc, so when they wanted to say that someone was the best, or the greatest, or whatnot, they would say "blank is blank among the blanks". For example, they couldn't say "Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback", they would have to say "Tom Brady is great among the quarterbacks.

But if Luke was inspired to express this superlative in Greek, wouldn't he have done so with a Greek superlative form, in order to translate any Hebrew or Aramaic accurately? But he didn't. As I understand it, the New Testament is inspired in its own "original" language, not another language that it might have drawn from.

Why would he intentionally alter a quote? Wouldn't that be dishonest?

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

It is important to understand that Hebrew does not have superlatives, "good, better, best," etc, so when they wanted to say that someone was the best, or the greatest, or whatnot, they would say "blank is blank among the blanks". For example, they couldn't say "Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback", they would have to say "Tom Brady is great among the quarterbacks.

But if Luke was inspired to express this superlative in Greek, wouldn't he have done so with a Greek superlative form, in order to translate any Hebrew or Aramaic accurately? But he didn't. As I understand it, the New Testament is inspired in its own "original" language, not another language that it might have drawn from.

Have you read the Book of Revelation lately? It is riddled with Hebrewisms.

[Doom]

Biblical scholars regard Hebraisms as a sign of authenticity; they show that

1. The tradition being preserved is very old
2. That the author was so concerned about preserving "the exact words" that he was unafraid of using somewhat awkward Greek if necessary

[VeryTas]

Well, to me it seems like a stretch -- that in writing a gospel for Greeks, the writer Luke, inspired by the Holy Spirit, in order to convey what the same Holy Spirit (through Elizabeth) meant, would retain phraseology from Hebrew that Greeks likely would not grasp.
Or is it these Bible scholars that can't grasp the possibility that the Holy Spirit could be absolutely distinguishing Mary from all other women, not just in degree?

[Doom]

Well, to me it seems like a stretch -- that in writing a gospel for Greeks, the writer Luke, inspired by the Holy Spirit, to convey what the same Holy Spirit (through Elizabeth) meant, would retain phraseology from Hebrew that Greeks likely would not grasp.

So your argument is that the Holy Spirir should have inspired Luke to falsify history?

[VeryTas]

Well, to me it seems like a stretch -- that in writing a gospel for Greeks, the writer Luke, inspired by the Holy Spirit, to convey what the same Holy Spirit (through Elizabeth) meant, would retain phraseology from Hebrew that Greeks likely would not grasp.

So your argument is that the Holy Spirir should have inspired Luke to falsify history?

To falsify what Elizabeth said? We don't know what she said in Aramaic or Hebrew. (She could even have said it in Greek.) In any case, the Church treats the Greek as authoritative for the NT, and the Greek could have used its comparative but didn't.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

An awfully thin thread on which to hang an argument.

[VeryTas]

An awfully thin thread on which to hang an argument.

And the argument that Elizabeth was calling Mary "most blessed" seems to be hanging on the expression's being an obvious Hebraism.

[Doom]

An awfully thin thread on which to hang an argument.

And the argument that Elizabeth was calling Mary "most blessed" seems to be hanging on the expression's being an obvious Hebraism.

It is obvious. I doubt you'll find a single scholar who denies it. No one has ever talked that way except for Hebrew-speaking Jews in antiquity has ever spoken that way.


Okay, let's go with your insane assumption that no one in the New Testament knew any language except Greek and every conversation in the New Testament was held entirely in Greek. What do you think "Blessed are you among women" meant?

[VeryTas]

Okay, let's go with your insane assumption that no one in the New Testament knew any language except Greek and every conversation in the New Testament was held entirely in Greek. What do you think "Blessed are you among women" meant?

I think it may have meant, Out of all women, you are the blessed one. I also find no hint in "blessed is the fruit of your womb" of any compar-ableness.

I forget where I ran across it but there was a statement by the Church to the effect that Scripture is inspired and authoritative "in its original languages". It seems like you want to extend "original", in the case of quoting a speaker like Elizabeth, to mean the speaker's own (supposed) language. Whereas I assume it means the language of the text that we have (Greek for the NT).

[Doom]

I forget where I ran across it but there was a statement by the Church to the effect that Scripture is inspired and authoritative "in its original languages". It seems like you want to extend "original", in the case of quoting a speaker like Elizabeth, to mean the speaker's own (supposed) language. Whereas I assume it means the language of the text that we have (Greek for the NT).

Oh my lord, I feel like I am talking to a fundamentalist. People who learn a second language often bring features of their first language into the way that they use the second language. I work with a lot of Hispanic immigrants from Mexico, Guatemala and other places further south in Central and South America, and I can't help but notice that even among those who have been speaking English for years stil tend to "Spanishize" English in ways that they probably don't realize. For example, I often hear sentences where the words in the Spanish order rather than English "I need a bucket yellow", for example. There can be no doubt that in the earlist stages of Christian expansion, that the Jews used to speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic would sometmes speak a Hebraic form of Greek.

"Blessed are you among women" is an OBVIOUS Hebraism; there are many of them in the New Testament,

Foe example, "He who does not hate his father and mother cannot be my disciple", "hate" is a Hebraism, due to the lack of superlatives in Hebrew, "hate" often means "loves less", for example, "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated", God hates no one, it means Jacob is the beloved son, Esau is loved less "Jacob loved Rachael but hated Leah", no, I am pretty sure he didn't actually "hate" Leah. Still, she was not the woman he wanted, and Rachel is the beloved wife.

Recognizing the Hebraic roots of the Old Testament eliminates a large percentage of problematic" passages in the New Testament,=,