The Anglo-Saxons: A History of the Beginnings of England - Marc Morris

A place for discussions about the Humanities such as books, music, fine arts, and Latin
Post Reply
p.falk
Citizen
Citizen
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:57 pm
Religion: Catholic

The Anglo-Saxons: A History of the Beginnings of England - Marc Morris

Post by p.falk »

On the old board there was a thread dedicated to this book. I wish I could remember who originally suggested it to me. This is my 2nd reading of it.

Simply a fascinating book. I read Marc Morris' book on the Norman Conquest and that too... all praise to the author for his handling of the material.


Morris, though having no truck with Christianity nor an axe to grind either, handles Church politics in 7th century England in a way that is very informative while not needlessly heaping personal disdain for some of the arcane happenings within the Church.

Though there are scandalous activities, bishops trying to undermine other bishops, bishops trying to curry favor with kings and accruing power comparable to some kings... for example: St. Wilfrid - apparently having an entourage of warriors that he could send some of his warriors on missions of protection while still having enough near him for protection.

But through all of this, one should be taken aback by how clement many of the bishops are. How driven by principle and settling disputes synodally they behave (even those wooed by the fruits of this side of the veil). St. Wilfrid, though many times portrayed as a hungry power grabber (and maybe he truly was)... he also seems concerned with the souls of pagans as when he was stuck in pagan Frisia during the winter of 678, he plead the Frisian king to allow him to preach and convert souls.

Doing this all the while there's a very real threat on his life. St Wilfrid meddled with Frankish politics when he helped bring Dagobert II out of exile, which led to Dagobert II becoming king of the Franks.
p.falk
Citizen
Citizen
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:57 pm
Religion: Catholic

Re: The Anglo-Saxons: A History of the Beginnings of England - Marc Morris

Post by p.falk »

Another interesting point covered is the difference and disputing between the more Irish form of Catholicism vs the more Roman form.

This is a topic that was covered by Thomas Cahill in "How the Irish Saved Civilization". Cahill was more of an inflammatory firebrand in his book than Morris (the non-Christian) is in this book.

Differences between the Irish and Roman "view" involving how the monasteries should be peopled, the type of tonsure, and the dating of the Easter celebration(to name some of the topics).
St. Colman representing the Irish side and St. Wilfrid asked to argue for the Roman side. Apparently Wilfrid was vastly more eloquent (according to both Simon of Ripon and Bede), though Bede states he was also more supercilious and insulting to the Irish practices. But it all eventually settled on Wilfrid "Thou art Peter, and on this Rock I will build my Church".

King Oswiu who was overseeing the debate (somewhat like Constantine during the Arian debates) asked both sides if this quote was actually said from Christ, Colman stated it was and King Oswiu determined that that concluded the issue - the Irish practices would make way for the Roman practices.
User avatar
Riverboat
Citizen
Citizen
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:26 pm
Location: Houston
Religion: Catholic
Contact:

Re: The Anglo-Saxons: A History of the Beginnings of England - Marc Morris

Post by Riverboat »

p.falk wrote: Tue Dec 23, 2025 3:40 pm This is a topic that was covered by Thomas Cahill in "How the Irish Saved Civilization". Cahill was more of an inflammatory firebrand in his book than Morris (the non-Christian) is in this book.
You'll have to point out examples of Cahill's firebrandery. I've read it twice and I don't recall being put off by anything.
Why would anyone ever smoke weed when they could just mow a lawn? - Hank Hill
User avatar
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
Posts: 1318
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:54 pm
Location: Not quite 90 degrees
Religion: Catholic

Re: The Anglo-Saxons: A History of the Beginnings of England - Marc Morris

Post by Obi-Wan Kenobi »

Cahill's later books are more obviously problematic. It's been awhile since I read any of them, but IIRC (always open to question), he leans into Modernist ideas.
p.falk
Citizen
Citizen
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:57 pm
Religion: Catholic

Re: The Anglo-Saxons: A History of the Beginnings of England - Marc Morris

Post by p.falk »

Riverboat wrote: Wed Dec 24, 2025 10:03 pm
p.falk wrote: Tue Dec 23, 2025 3:40 pm This is a topic that was covered by Thomas Cahill in "How the Irish Saved Civilization". Cahill was more of an inflammatory firebrand in his book than Morris (the non-Christian) is in this book.
You'll have to point out examples of Cahill's firebrandery. I've read it twice and I don't recall being put off by anything.
I'll search through the book and find those.

I might be acting too much of a firebrand toward Cahill, but I do remember him making it explicit that he did not prefer the more Roman expression of Catholicism in England and much preferred the Irish expression personified in Saints Columba and Aidan. With Cahill being quite critical of the Roman "moralizing". I found this quote online:
"How different might Catholicism be today if it had been taken over by the easy Irish sympathy between churchmen and laymen and the easy Irish attitude toward diversity, authority, the role of women, and the relative unimportance of sexual mores."
And I cannot recall the name of the saint, but Cahill strongly indicates that abortion is not that bad and points to an example in which Christ or Mary visited a woman and "removed" her unwanted pregnancy.
User avatar
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
Posts: 1318
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:54 pm
Location: Not quite 90 degrees
Religion: Catholic

Re: The Anglo-Saxons: A History of the Beginnings of England - Marc Morris

Post by Obi-Wan Kenobi »

This is the sort of thing I had in mind.
p.falk
Citizen
Citizen
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:57 pm
Religion: Catholic

Re: The Anglo-Saxons: A History of the Beginnings of England - Marc Morris

Post by p.falk »

Morris writes of St. Wilfrid:
Any assessment of Wilfrid has to acknowledge the enormous impact of his extraordinary life. Arguably no other person, not even Augustine or Theodore, did more to shape the course of Christianity in Britain during its first century. He was born into a world that was still overwhelmingly pagan, at a time when the Roman mission was in crisis and the Celtic mission was barely underway. Raised in the Irish tradition, he rebelled against it and became Rome's most determined champion, seeking to eradicate what he came to regard as Celtic heresy.


But Morris also states:
... how many thousands died as a result of the wars of conquest that were unleashed with Wilfrid's blessing, or resisting his campaigns of forced conversion? How many careers of pious men and women did he ruin in pursuit of doctrinal purity and personal vendettas? Wilfrid's impact was undoubtedly great, but to achieve it he committed many terrible deeds.
Regarding the "war of conquest"... he's referring to Wilfrid's apparently blessing of warrior king Caedwalla who invaded the Isle of Wight;
...intending 'to wipe out all the natives with merciless slaughter, and to replace them with people from his own kingdom
The inhabitant of the Isle of Wight were pagan and Wilfrid gave his blessing take 'em out.
p.falk
Citizen
Citizen
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:57 pm
Religion: Catholic

Re: The Anglo-Saxons: A History of the Beginnings of England - Marc Morris

Post by p.falk »

I like this passage from the book. It mentions how as the Saxons replaced the Britons a new threat may similarly displace the Saxons:
In a letter to the people of Kent, written in 797, he (Alcuin of York) referred to the 'Ruin of Britain', written by Gildas almost three centuries earlier. The Britons, he reminded his readers, had once enjoyed God's favour, but lost it through sinfulness and fighting among themselves. As a result they had been punished by the invasion of the Anglo-Saxons. Alcuin saw this happening again, for God was now scourging the English (Angli) in exactly the same way.

"Behold, a thing never heard of before," (Alcuin) warned, "A pagan people habitually makes pirate raids on our shores."
And now comes into focus the growing attacks of the Vikings.
p.falk
Citizen
Citizen
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:57 pm
Religion: Catholic

Re: The Anglo-Saxons: A History of the Beginnings of England - Marc Morris

Post by p.falk »

Portents of calamity:
In the early months of 793, the people of Northumbria were terrified by a series of evil omens. According to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, drawing on an earlier set of northern annals that are now lost, there were great gales, flashes of lightning, 'and fiery dragons were seen flying in the air' - an illusion perhaps created by the Northern Lights, which can sometimes be seen in the Northumbrian sky. In a letter written that same year, Alcuin of York reported that, during Lent, the cathedral in his home city had been showered with rain the colour of blood. These signs in the heavens were seen as a warning of dire things to come, and sure enough, in the spring the kingdom was afflicted by a terrible famine.

But that was only the beginning, on 8 June, a band of what the Chronicle calls "heathen men" landed their ships on the island of Lindisfarne, plundered the monastery there, and slaughtered many of the monks.
p.falk
Citizen
Citizen
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:57 pm
Religion: Catholic

Re: The Anglo-Saxons: A History of the Beginnings of England - Marc Morris

Post by p.falk »

One of my favorite sections of the book:
(King) Alfred had returned with one purpose - to confront and destroy the Danes who were occupying his kingdom. ON the morning after the muster at Egbert's Stone he marched his forces northwards in the direction of the viking camp at Chippenham. The following day they encountered the entire viking army at a place called Edington, and a fierce battle ensued. ... Alfred was victorious, 'He destroyed the pagans with great slaughter,' says Asser, 'and pursued those who fled as far as the stronghold' (presumably the camp at Chippenham), twenty miles to the north of the battlefield. The king and his army killed all the Danes they caught outside the compound and seized all the horses and cattle, putting immense pressure on those holed up within. After a fortnight's siege, says Asser, hunger and fear drove those inside to despair, and they sought terms of surrender.
What a time to be a Saxon.
The magnitude of Alfred's victory at Edington is demonstrated by the conditions he was able to impose. In the first place, the king was in a position to demand as many hostages as he wanted, without having to hand over any of his own men in return. This, according to Asser, was a novelty: never before had the vikings made peace on such terms with anyone (a statement that implies Alfred's earlier negotiations with the vikings had involved the exchange of hostages). Secondly, and more momentously, the viking leaders agreed to convert to Christianity, and to be baptized at Alfred's court. This had happened on earlier occassions in Francia, but it is the first recorded instance of it happening in Britain.
... Their (the Danes) leader was Guthrum,... part of a triumvirate of viking kings. ... Guthrum, says Asser, was raised from the font by Alfred himself, becoming the king's godson, and the Chronicle reveals that he received the baptismal name of Athelstan, evoking the memory of Alfred's eldest brother who had died over two decades earlier. As part of the ceremony the converts were clothed in white robes, and their heads anointed with holy oil.
p.falk
Citizen
Citizen
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:57 pm
Religion: Catholic

Re: The Anglo-Saxons: A History of the Beginnings of England - Marc Morris

Post by p.falk »

King Alfred the Great, after working to restore the Dane-devastated city of London in 886, now aims to bring back learning and literacy to his kingdom.

He surrounds himself first with 4 learned clergy: Werferth (bishop of Worcester), Plegmund (later becomes archbishop of Canterbury), Aethelstan (priest), and Waerwulf (priest).

They do their part, but still not fully up to the challenge. So King Alfred brings in two intellectual heavy-hitters: Grimbald ("a priest of the monastery of St. Bertin, 'extremely learned in every kind of ecclesiastical doctrine'") and John the Old Saxon ("immensely learned in all fields of literary endeavors"). - both quotes are from Asser, Welsh monk, biographer of King Alfred, who later became bishop of Sherborne.
Alfred's additional reason for assembling his A-list of intellectuals was to assist him in producing books in English. This was a highly unusual initiative. English had been used since the start of the 7th century to draft administrative documents, such as charters and law codes, but never employed for great works of literature, theology, or philosophy, which were composed exclusively in Latin or Greek. As the king explained in his later letter to the bishops, the revival of Latin literacy was his ultimate goal, but it had occurred to him that in the first place it would be beneficial to have great works ('books which are most necessary for all men to know') translated into English - 'the language we can all understand', as Alfred described it.
The 7 books translated:
Two by Gregory the Great: Dialogues and Pastoral Care
Two more were historical ("Bede's Ecclesiastical History was an obvious choice")
Histories against the Pagans by Orosius
An English rendering of the first 50 Psalms (the only work which was biblical)
Soliloquies by St. Augustine
Consolation of Philosophy by Boethius

Not on the scope of what Charlamagne had done on the continent a few years earlier, but incredibly impressive on its own.
User avatar
Highlander
Citizen
Citizen
Posts: 428
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:29 pm
Location: Nuevo Mexico
Religion: Catholic

Re: The Anglo-Saxons: A History of the Beginnings of England - Marc Morris

Post by Highlander »

I'd be a bit leery of bringing a Waerwulf into my household.
There Can Be Only One.
anawim
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 524
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:34 pm
Location: Northern suburbs of NYC
Religion: Catholic

Re: The Anglo-Saxons: A History of the Beginnings of England - Marc Morris

Post by anawim »

Highlander wrote: Thu Feb 12, 2026 11:17 am I'd be a bit leery of bringing a Waerwulf into my household.
There seems to be a shift after William the Conqueror. Before the 11th. c. names in England were what we would think of as rather strange or odd. After that, names became more familiar: William, Edward, George, etc.
p.falk
Citizen
Citizen
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:57 pm
Religion: Catholic

Re: The Anglo-Saxons: A History of the Beginnings of England - Marc Morris

Post by p.falk »

Highlander wrote: Thu Feb 12, 2026 11:17 am I'd be a bit leery of bringing a Waerwulf into my household.
:lol:

There's another funny (by virtue of names and professions) bit of history.

Cynewulf becomes king of Essex in the same year Offa becomes king of Mercia: 757.

Cynewulf chases his predecessor, Sigeberht, into exile. But while in exile Sigeberht is stabbed to death by a swineheard.

Years later Sigeberht's brother, Cyneheard, with a group of his followers hunt down and find Cynewulf in some unnamed location. Bravely and foolishly enough, it's recorded that Cynewulf charges this group before his men were even ready to battle. And Cynewulf clearly loses.

But, Sigeberht being killed by a swineheard and his own brother is named Cyneheard. Cyneheard heard Sigeberht was killed by a swineheard.
Last edited by p.falk on Thu Feb 12, 2026 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
p.falk
Citizen
Citizen
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:57 pm
Religion: Catholic

Re: The Anglo-Saxons: A History of the Beginnings of England - Marc Morris

Post by p.falk »

anawim wrote: Thu Feb 12, 2026 12:37 pm
Highlander wrote: Thu Feb 12, 2026 11:17 am I'd be a bit leery of bringing a Waerwulf into my household.
There seems to be a shift after William the Conqueror. Before the 11th. c. names in England were what we would think of as rather strange or odd. After that, names became more familiar: William, Edward, George, etc.
Prior to the Norman Conquest I'm amazed, and confused in trying to follow, the amount of kings and ealdormen whose name start with Aethal.
p.falk
Citizen
Citizen
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:57 pm
Religion: Catholic

Re: The Anglo-Saxons: A History of the Beginnings of England - Marc Morris

Post by p.falk »

The Danes (vikings) first recorded attack on England occurs at the monastery at Lindisfarne in 793. It's almost a century later, 878, when King Alfred baptizes Dane leader Guthrum in hopes of quelling the Scandinavian persistent desire for attacking the Saxons.

It has its successes but it doesn't completely stop Danish aggressions... though King Alfred is significantly more successful in putting down Danish aggressions at this point in his career.

Regarding how many Scandinavians had now (yr 878) settled in England:
Historians who have analyzed all this evidence have cautiously suggested that the total number of newcomers might have been somewhere between 20,000 and 35,000.
But King Alfred is not a true "King of England". His area of power is still primarily Wessex and the west portion of Mercia. With the eastern and northern parts of England under Danish authority and compromising of the areas of Danish settlements:
Modern historians often refer to the area of Scandinavian settlement as "the Danelaw", although that term does not occur in our sources until the early eleventh century, and can give the misleading impression that these lands somehow constituted a single entity. The reality was that the area of Danish settlement was split into several distinct political zones, and governed by a galaxy of competing rulers - kings whose names are mostly unrecorded.
While the Danes were a powerful force during their marauding period, due to their being obedient to the few leaders of those charges... now that they are settled, disputes of authority are driving wedges between this previously more unified people. Though they still come together from across England (Northumbria and East Anglia) when they hear of other Danish attacks on Saxon land... this lack of unity will be their undoing when King Alfred's eldest daughter, Aethelflaed ("Lady of the Mercians") and son, King Edward, begin their retaliatory attacks on the Danes.

The rabble rouser for the current Danish hostilities would be Kind Alfred's brother's (Aethelred) son - Aethelwold.

After Alfred dies, Aethelwold insists that he should be king as it was his dad, Aethelred, who had been king prior to Alfred. When Aethelred died (871) Aethelwold was too young to be king so that honor passed to Alfred. Now that Alfred has died, Aethelwold is disputing the kingship passing to Alfred's son, Edward.

Aethelwold flees to Northumbria, agitates the Danish rulers which leads to reigniting that Danish desire for Saxon land:
Having arrived in Northumbria in 899, Aethelwold managed, by some unknown wizardry, to persuade the Scandinavian settlers to accept him as their king. The news that a succession dispute had divided the royal house of Wessex must have been sweet music to those vikings who settled in the north, and Aethelwold wasted little time in rekindling their hopes of conquest and fanning them to his own advantage... Within short time they had persuaded the Danes in East Anglia to join their enterprise, and in 902 their combined forces invaded Mercia, harrying right up to the Thames, and then crossing the river at Cricklade to plunder within Wessex itself.
King Edward and his sister Aethelflaed, are about to have the success in bringing all of England under Saxon rule... a feat not accomplished even by King Alfred.
Post Reply