Laudato Deum Apostolic Exhortation

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Stella
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Laudato Deum Apostolic Exhortation

Post by Stella »

This new letter pulls no punches. As citizens of the world we must not "deny, conceal, gloss over or relativize the issue, the signs of climate change are here and increasingly evident."

https://www.vatican.va/content/francesc ... -deum.html
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Re: Laudato Deum Apostolic Exhortation

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Of course, those signs have nothing to do with faith or morals, so the current bishop of Rome can of course be fundamentally mistaken about them.
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Re: Laudato Deum Apostolic Exhortation

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And even if he isn't mistaken, so what? He is no source of guidance on the issue. Statements like this are an example of infallibility creep,"I'm the Pope I can speak authoritatively on everything, whether I am informed on the matter or not", actually, no, and frankly, shut up and focus on your real job.
If you ever feel like Captain Picard yelling about how many lights there are, it is probably time to leave the thread.
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Re: Laudato Deum Apostolic Exhortation

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gherkin wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2023 2:37 pm Of course, those signs have nothing to do with faith or morals, so the current bishop of Rome can of course be fundamentally mistaken about them.
Bear in mind that environmental abuses have been a moral issue for the Church for a very long time. In 1971 Pope St Paul VI wrote in the Apostolic Letter Octogesim Adveniens https://www.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/ ... niens.html...

21. While the horizon of man is thus being modified according to the images that are chosen for him, another transformation is making itself felt, one which is the dramatic and unexpected consequence of human activity. Man is suddenly becoming aware that by an ill-considered exploitation of nature he risks destroying it and becoming in his turn the victim of this degradation. Not only is the material environment becoming a permanent menace - pollution and refuse, new illness and absolute destructive capacity - but the human framework is no longer under man's control, thus creating an environment for tomorrow which may well be intolerable. This is a wide-ranging social problem which concerns the entire human family.

The Christian must turn to these new perceptions in order to take on responsibility, together with the rest of men, for a destiny which from now on is shared by all
.


Also in 1979 Pope St John Paul II in the Encyclical Redemptor Hominis https://www.vatican.va/content/john-pau ... minis.html writes...

Man often seems to see no other meaning in his natural environment than what serves for immediate use and consumption. Yet it was the Creator’s will that man should communicate with nature as an intelligent and noble “master” and “guardian”, and not as a heedless “exploiter” and “destroyer”.

Again in 1990 for the World Day for Peace https://www.vatican.va/content/john-pau ... peace.html Pope John Paul II brings home the moral aspect of environmental issues...

II. The ecological crisis: a moral problem

6. Certain elements of today's ecological crisis reveal its moral character. First among these is the indiscriminate application of advances in science and technology. Many recent discoveries have brought undeniable benefits to humanity. Indeed, they demonstrate the nobility of the human vocation to participate responsibly in God's creative action in the world. Unfortunately, it is now clear that the application of these discoveries in the fields of industry and agriculture have produced harmful long-term effects. This has led to the painful realization that we cannot interfere in one area of the ecosystem without paying due attention both to the consequences of such interference in other areas and to the well-being of future generations.

The gradual depletion of the ozone layer and the related "greenhouse effect"has now reached crisis proportions as a consequence of industrial growth, massive urban concentrations and vastly increased energy needs. Industrial waste, the burning of fossil fuels, unrestricted deforestation, the use of certain types of herbicides, coolants and propellants: all of these are known to harm the atmosphere and environment. The resulting meteorological and atmospheric changes range from damage to health to the possible future submersion of low-lying lands.

While in some cases the damage already done may well be irreversible, in many other cases it can still be halted. It is necessary, however, that the entire human community - individuals, States and international bodies - take seriously the responsibility that is theirs
.


Pope Francis is only continuing to emphasise what has been an ongoing campaign important in the Church's social teachings.
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Re: Laudato Deum Apostolic Exhortation

Post by Mrs. Timmy »

Why do people feel the need to complicate what really is quite simple? God gave mankind stewardship over the earth (Gen. 1:26-28)

The Oxford Dictionary gives as one definition of the word steward: "a person employed to manage another person’s property, especially a large house or land." (This being the definition that pertains to the context of the verses in Genesis).

So let's dig deeper and define the word manage: "to control how land is used, so that it is used in a sensible way." (emphasis mine)

So, tell me, where's the sense in
*mandating the use of electric vehicles requiring rare earth metals that cause more damage to the earth to mine than anything caused by hydrocarbon emissions, especially considering that the current electrical infrastructure in the US cannot support the target number of electric vehicles the "green new dealers" want on the roads?
*denying the fact that the earth's temperatures have been cyclical since its creation and that current temps are well within the cyclical pattern?
*banning plastic straws, but foisting useless masks on the populace that have found their way into our oceans and have created a much greater hazard to sea life than soda straws ever have?

Don't get me wrong. I hate littering and senseless waste of natural resources with a purple passion. But, with all due respect, the Pontiff needs to stay in his lane. Laudato Deum ain't his lane. When it comes to Church teaching on the environment, it needs to stay simple. Don't trash the place. Don't wear out the land. Keep planting trees. Don't waste water or other natural resources. Don't mess with the natural balance of flora and fauna. It's not rocket science, nor should it be a political agenda.
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Re: Laudato Deum Apostolic Exhortation

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The problem with much of environmentalism is that it is unrealistic, unnuanced, and tends towards naive utopianism. Environmentalists also have a tendency to act as if their preferred solution is a guaranteed panacea with no possible downsides, thus they refuse to acknowledge that every proposed "solution" only causes different problems. There are no solutions, there are only trade-offs, and environmentalists refuse to believe this.

Let me give you one of many, many, many, many possible examples: recycling. Regardless of what environmentalists say, recycling is not the be-all end-all guaranteed to fix all problems related to waste. In fact, there are many problems recycling creates, such as using enormous amounts of water (is a process that wastes large amounts of water really environmentally friendly) tends to be very expensive, much more expensive than simply throwing an item away and creating a new one from scratch, and recycled products tend to be of inferior quality. "Everyone must recycle everything" is not the moral imperative some environmentalists think. One can even make a compelling argument that recycling is a solution in search of a problem.
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Re: Laudato Deum Apostolic Exhortation

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Doom wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2023 7:27 pm There are no solutions, there are only trade-offs, and environmentalists refuse to believe this.
Based on this theory, do you believe that the status quo is better than doing something?
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Re: Laudato Deum Apostolic Exhortation

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Stella wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2023 4:47 pmBear in mind that environmental abuses have been a moral issue for the Church for a very long time. ...Pope Francis is only continuing to emphasise what has been an ongoing campaign important in the Church's social teachings.
The Church should be teaching us that avarice and envy are not ways to construct or maintain a proper economy or social order, and has been doing that since Leo XIII in very clear and specific ways, condemning socialism directly and capitalism at least indirectly. But the Church can't teach authoritatively on scientific issues, such as matters bearing on whether or why the climate is changing.
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Re: Laudato Deum Apostolic Exhortation

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Stella wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2023 8:21 pm
Doom wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2023 7:27 pm There are no solutions, there are only trade-offs, and environmentalists refuse to believe this.
Based on this theory, do you believe that the status quo is better than doing something?
"Doing something" is a completely meaningless phrase used to justify all sorts of awful and destructive ideas on the grounds that it "can't be worse", well, actually "the solution" can easily be worse and often is. What we need to do is carefully examine our priorities and decide precisely which goods we can sacrifice for the sake of another good that we consider more important, and not act impulsively at the first idea we think on the grounds that we have to "do something".
If you ever feel like Captain Picard yelling about how many lights there are, it is probably time to leave the thread.
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Re: Laudato Deum Apostolic Exhortation

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gherkin wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2023 8:48 pm
Stella wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2023 4:47 pmBear in mind that environmental abuses have been a moral issue for the Church for a very long time. ...Pope Francis is only continuing to emphasise what has been an ongoing campaign important in the Church's social teachings.
The Church should be teaching us that avarice and envy are not ways to construct or maintain a proper economy or social order, and has been doing that since Leo XIII in very clear and specific ways, condemning socialism directly and capitalism at least indirectly. But the Church can't teach authoritatively on scientific issues, such as matters bearing on whether or why the climate is changing.
But the Church does rely on the 'science' of human life when teaching on abortion and contraception for example. Divine law and natural law are both proper parts of eternal law. That there is conflict between the two is due to wrong concepts on both extremes.
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Re: Laudato Deum Apostolic Exhortation

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Doom wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2023 8:49 pm
Stella wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2023 8:21 pm
Doom wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2023 7:27 pm There are no solutions, there are only trade-offs, and environmentalists refuse to believe this.
Based on this theory, do you believe that the status quo is better than doing something?
"Doing something" is a completely meaningless phrase used to justify all sorts of awful and destructive ideas on the grounds that it "can't be worse", well, actually "the solution" can easily be worse and often is. What we need to do is carefully examine our priorities and decide precisely which goods we can sacrifice for the sake of another good that we consider more important, and not act impulsively at the first idea we think on the grounds that we have to "do something".
What examples of correct solutions would you cite so I know what you are talking about?
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Re: Laudato Deum Apostolic Exhortation

Post by gherkin »

Stella wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2023 9:16 pmBut the Church does rely on the 'science' of human life when teaching on abortion and contraception for example.
Not really. The Church has consistently taught against abortion and contraception, since long before there was anything like the contemporary understanding of embryology or the exact mechanisms of human reproduction.
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Re: Laudato Deum Apostolic Exhortation

Post by peregrinator »

Right, abortion is wrong whether the consensus of scientists is that life begins at conception (this is actually a tautology, because "conception" is when life begins) or fertilization or whatever (keep in mind the Church still has not pronounced on when ensoulment actually happens).

And yes, abusing the environment is wrong since we have been given stewardship over the earth but there isn't much that we as individuals can control. For example, the Pope was at pains to point out that the per capita emissions in the US are about double (not "two times greater" as the translator hilariously rendered it) the per capita emissions of China. But why is this the case? Is it because the US produces more than China, or is it because of our lifestyles? We have control over our lifestyles, to some degree, but we don't really have control over production, some of which is very necessary for the flourishing of life.
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Re: Laudato Deum Apostolic Exhortation

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Stella wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2023 9:18 pm
Doom wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2023 8:49 pm
Stella wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2023 8:21 pm

Based on this theory, do you believe that the status quo is better than doing something?
"Doing something" is a completely meaningless phrase used to justify all sorts of awful and destructive ideas on the grounds that it "can't be worse", well, actually "the solution" can easily be worse and often is. What we need to do is carefully examine our priorities and decide precisely which goods we can sacrifice for the sake of another good that we consider more important, and not act impulsively at the first idea we think on the grounds that we have to "do something".
What examples of correct solutions would you cite so I know what you are talking about?

There are no 'correct solutions" that is precisely the point. There are only trade-offs, doing it one way produces one good, but at the expense of another good, while doing it another way produces a different good but at the expense of giving up the good produced by the other way.

I think recycling is an excellent example which is why I used it, you can't just focus on 'let's put less in landfills', because if that is the only objective you overlook the fact that recycling leads to wasting massive amounts of water.

Society needs to make a choice, which is more important, reducing the amount that goes into landfills OR conserving water, you cannot do both.
If you ever feel like Captain Picard yelling about how many lights there are, it is probably time to leave the thread.
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