Pope to be buried outside the Vatican with simplified funeral

[Stella]

Pope Francis said he has decided to be buried in Rome’s Basilica of St. Mary Major instead of in St. Peter’s Basilica at the Vatican and that he has simplified the rites for a papal funeral.

In a Dec. 12 interview with Mexican news outlet N+, the pope, in good humor, discussed plans for his own funeral as well as the trips he still hopes to complete during his pontificate.

Still recovering from what he described as bronchitis that has affected him since late November — prompting him to cancel a planned trip to the United Arab Emirates — the pope said he feels “quite well” physically and continues to improve. Yet asked if people should be concerned about his health, he responded, “Yes, a little bit, yes. I need them to pray for my health.”

The pope said he had already discussed preparations for a papal funeral with his master of liturgical ceremonies, Archbishop Diego Giovanni Ravelli. “We simplified them quite a bit,” he said, and jokingly added that “I will premiere the new ritual.”

Pope Francis celebrated the funeral Mass for Pope Benedict XVI in January 2023 following a rite based on, but not identical to, a papal funeral, since Pope Benedict was not a reigning pope at the time of his death.

Devotion to St. Mary Major
Breaking with recent tradition, Pope Francis said he has chosen to be buried at the Basilica of St. Mary Major because of his “very strong connection” with the church. Pope Leo XIII, who died in 1903, was the last pope not buried at St. Peter’s Basilica; Pope Leo’s tomb is in the Basilica of St. John Lateran in Rome. Six popes are buried at St. Mary Major; the last to be interred there was Pope Clement IX in 1669.

Pope Francis said he wants to be buried in the Marian basilica because “it is my great devotion,” adding that he would visit St. Mary Major on Sunday mornings when he traveled to Rome before becoming pope. Pope Francis often prays before the icon “Salus Populi Romani” (“health of the Roman people”) displayed in the basilica before and after his international trips to entrust his safety to Mary.

“The place is already prepared,” he said.

https://www.oursundayvisitor.com/pope-s ... g-funeral/

[Doom]

He must be expecting this to apply soon, his health isn't good and he has been canceling events, suddenly changing funeral plans is not a good sign.

By the way, all Papal funerals are "simple", Popes are usually laid in a simple wooden box with a book of the gospels nearby at the funeral, with little fanfare.

[Stella]

He must be expecting this to apply soon, his health isn't good and he has been canceling events, suddenly changing funeral plans is not a good sign.

By the way, all Papal funerals are "simple", Popes are usually laid in a simple wooden box with a book of the gospels nearby at the funeral, with little fanfare.

I’m sure the inevitable is on his mind at 86 years of age. It’ll remain to be seen how his funeral goes. Generally there is loads of fanfare at papal funerals with all the dignitaries from around the world. I wonder if he would desire an overshadowed event the way Mother Teresa’s death was overshadowed by the death of Diana just before her. Or CS Lewis dying on the day JFK was assassinated. I think I’d like that.

[Doom]

The simplicity of a funeral has nothing to do with how many people attend, otherwise the most Christian thing to do would be to not have a funeral at all.

And it doesn't matter what he might have planned, Pope Francis' funeral will not be 1/10 as big as John Paul II's, because he is not as popular, influential, or consequential a Pope. John Paul II was a once-every-1,000-years kind of pope, we will not see another funeral that big in our lifetime, nor in our children's lifetime, nor our grandchildren's lifetime, nor our great, great grandchildren's lifetime, but our great great great great great grandchildren might see something half as big.

[Stella]

The simplicity of a funeral has nothing to do with how many people attend, otherwise the most Christian thing to do would be to not have a funeral at all.

You didn't say simplicity. You said 'fanfare' which means the public spectacle. St Paul VI had the simple wooden box but the fanfare was still there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k4dz5-Gn_U

And it doesn't matter what he might have planned, Pope Francis' funeral will not be 1/10 as big as John Paul II's, because he is not as popular, influential, or consequential a Pope. John Paul II was a once-every-1,000-years kind of pope, we will not see another funeral that big in our lifetime, nor in our children's lifetime, nor our grandchildren's lifetime, nor our great, great grandchildren's lifetime, but our great great great great great grandchildren might see something half as big.

The majority of us around the world aren't into the perceived politics or populism. The Seat of Peter is still important regardless of who occupies it so I think you'll see the normal fanfare surrounding Francis' funeral whether he wants that or not.

[Stella]

Even just googling Pope John Paul I's funeral after just 33 days as Pope. Lots of fanfare. Even though he was definitely not the darling of the conservatives as the commentator alluded to by his description of JPI.

"Hailed as a Pope of the people John Pauls death was dramatic and unexpected as his election 33 days earlier. Then the vast numbers waiting outside St Peters Basilica confidently expected a conservative to occupy the papal throne. Albino Luciani Patriarch of Venice was a surprise but a pleasant one. He was a man who declared he would be more pastor than Prince. He was determined to abandon medieval ceremony, a smiling Pope prepared to come down to the people. From the moment of his first papal blessing the world accepted him with enthusiasm even joy."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni_fw-eJv6E

[peregrinator]

By the way, all Papal funerals are "simple", Popes are usually laid in a simple wooden box with a book of the gospels nearby at the funeral, with little fanfare.

The funeral Mass itself might be simple but the exequies can be rather elaborate.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

The majority of us around the world aren't into the perceived politics or populism. The Seat of Peter is still important regardless of who occupies it so I think you'll see the normal fanfare surrounding Francis' funeral whether he wants that or not.

People flooded to Rome because it was JP II's funeral, not because it was a pope's funeral in general. People will come to Francis's funeral, but not in such numbers.

[Stella]

The majority of us around the world aren't into the perceived politics or populism. The Seat of Peter is still important regardless of who occupies it so I think you'll see the normal fanfare surrounding Francis' funeral whether he wants that or not.

People flooded to Rome because it was JP II's funeral, not because it was a pope's funeral in general. People will come to Francis's funeral, but not in such numbers.

John Paul II was the third longest reigning Pope in 2000 years behind St Peter and Pius IX and became very loved by generations of Catholics. But as I posted above crowds flocked to JPI's funeral as well after only being on the Seat for 33 days. One of my sons was at WYD in Panama a couple of years ago the visits from Pope Francis were wild and joy filled as they have been for every Pope. I think people who really dislike him will be surprised by the numbers who accept and love him as the valid, Spirit filled Pope of the Church.

[Gandalf the Grey]

One of my sons was at WYD in Panama a couple of years ago the visits from Pope Francis were wild and joy filled as they have been for every Pope. I think people who really dislike him will be surprised by the numbers who accept and love him as the valid, Spirit filled Pope of the Church.

Sorta like how Chinese people were wild and joy-filled when they met Mao?

Or how Russians were wild and joy-filled when them met Lenin and Stalin?

Or Cubans for Castro? Or Venezuelans for Chavez and Maduro?

Or Argentinians for Peron? Or Leftists for those like Sanders or Republicans for Trump?

Appearances are deceiving, and popular sentiment is as best a misleading and untrustworthy gauge of what's really happening.

The more I look at Francis' antics while bishop of Buenos Aries and the steps that have been taken to cover up those antics....the fact that Argentinians really don't like this Pope and that he's refused to go back to his home country while Pope suggests to me that you're trying to convince yourself more than anyone else when you make such statements.

To quote a Spanish journalist:

"However much he may work carefully to impress everyone with the appearance of a plaster saint, austere and mortified, he is a man with a mentality of power." - Francisco de la Cigoňa

[Stella]

One of my sons was at WYD in Panama a couple of years ago the visits from Pope Francis were wild and joy filled as they have been for every Pope. I think people who really dislike him will be surprised by the numbers who accept and love him as the valid, Spirit filled Pope of the Church.

Sorta like how Chinese people were wild and joy-filled when they met Mao?

Or how Russians were wild and joy-filled when them met Lenin and Stalin?

Or Cubans for Castro? Or Venezuelans for Chavez and Maduro?

Or Argentinians for Peron? Or Leftists for those like Sanders or Republicans for Trump?

Appearances are deceiving, and popular sentiment is as best a misleading and untrustworthy gauge of what's really happening.

Or like the followers of Jesus or the evangelizing Apostles? These are youth specifically looking to follow Christ through the Church. Not idealists or with politics first agenda’s. They deserve credit for their discernment and are being perfectly Catholic.

The more I look at Francis' antics while bishop of Buenos Aries and the steps that have been taken to cover up those antics....the fact that Argentinians really don't like this Pope and that he's refused to go back to his home country while Pope suggests to me that you're trying to convince yourself more than anyone else when you make such statements.

To quote a Spanish journalist:

"However much he may work carefully to impress everyone with the appearance of a plaster saint, austere and mortified, he is a man with a mentality of power." - Francisco de la Cigoňa

From what I’ve read Francis was only unpopular with fundamentalists on the right and left of political ideology. He irritated them for being ambiguous about his politics. But his commitment to the poor and disenfranchised has always been a mainstay of his clerical life and that is still the type of Catholics who value him today.

[BobCatholic]

Am I committing a sin if I ask when this will happen?

[Gandalf the Grey]

Or like the followers of Jesus or the evangelizing Apostles?

Nice try. That you would even attempt to compare Jesus and the Apostles with narcissistic tyrants and the crowds they manipulated is however remarkably telling....

These are youth specifically looking to follow Christ through the Church. Not idealists or with politics first agenda’s. They deserve credit for their discernment and are being perfectly Catholic.

Again you seem to purposely misconstrue what I'm saying in order to miss my fundamental point and make some cheap retort.

What I said has little to do with those youth and everything to do with the Machiavellian narcissism of the leaders who have duped and manipulated them. That crowds in general throughout history have always been succeptable to being duped-especially by those promising to give people whatever they wany in exchange for their favor and endorsement- is just a simple fact. That is what makes them unreliable.

Thanks be to God that truth isn't a matter of a democratic vote.

Francis is as Machiavellian and narcissistic and as obsessed with power politics as any of the other politicians I mentioned. But his facade and his veneer are cracking and the emperor is exposing himself more and more as having no clothes.

From what I’ve read Francis was only unpopular with fundamentalists on the right and left of political ideology. He irritated them for being ambiguous about his politics.

You're joking, right?

His politics is the only thing that Francis hasn't been ambiguous about.

From Argentinian political expert Professor Peretó:

..(Milei's election) represents a rebuff to Bergoglio, and confirms what everybody knows: the Argentinians do not like Pope Francis and don’t want him. For years now, when news about Bergoglio has appeared in newspapers and portals, the administrators find themselves obliged to close readers’ comments, which are for the most part contemptuous and harsh. Many people may have thought that the rejection of Bergoglio was widespread only among those who read and keep informed. It has now been shown that it’s present in all social strata, even among the poor. For that very reason, Bergoglio will never come to Argentina, because his journey would be a failure. It is certain that the majority of the lower clergy, especially the younger priests, are sick of Bergoglio and don’t want anything to do with him: a rejection which embraces everything that the Pope does and advocates.

As regards to the first part, I guess we're just going to ignore the millions of dollars of dubious financial doings or the numerous cover-ups of clerical sexual abuse that he's engaged in?

Or how he's constantly promoted corrupt and morally weak men into positions of power so that he can control them or drop them if they don't follow his agenda?

But his commitment to the poor and disenfranchised has always been a mainstay of his clerical life and that is still the type of Catholics who value him today.

Let me reiterate: "...a plaster saint."

There's a world of difference between actually caring for the poor vs. just making pious noises about the poor to use them to make yourself look good in appearance.

[Stella]

Or like the followers of Jesus or the evangelizing Apostles?

Nice try. That you would even attempt to compare Jesus and the Apostles with narcissistic tyrants and the crowds they manipulated is however remarkably telling....

What does it tell you? You use this veiled accusation technique all the time. I want you to be honest and articulate what you mean.

[Gandalf the Grey]

Or like the followers of Jesus or the evangelizing Apostles?

Nice try. That you would even attempt to compare Jesus and the Apostles with narcissistic tyrants and the crowds they manipulated is however remarkably telling....

What does it tell you? You use this veiled accusation technique all the time. I want you to be honest and articulate what you mean.

It tells me that the comparison is silly and patently absurd and purely ideological propaganda. It's empty noise with nothing behind it except the invocation of the name of Jesus and His followers for the sake of polemics. It's bordering on abuse that you would even invoke the holy name of Jesus is such a cheap fashion.

That you try to impose such a comparison in order to gain some sort of unearned superior moral footing in this discussion is cynical and dubious bordering on disingenuous.

Francis is not Jesus, he's not even close. So stop it.

[Stella]

Nice try. That you would even attempt to compare Jesus and the Apostles with narcissistic tyrants and the crowds they manipulated is however remarkably telling....

What does it tell you? You use this veiled accusation technique all the time. I want you to be honest and articulate what you mean.

It tells me that the comparison is silly and patently absurd and purely ideological propaganda. It's empty noise with nothing behind it except the invocation of the name of Jesus and His followers for the sake of polemics. It's bordering on abuse that you would even invoke the holy name of Jesus is such a cheap fashion.

That you try to impose such a comparison in order to gain some sort of unearned superior moral footing in this discussion is cynical and dubious bordering on disingenuous.

Francis is not Jesus, he's not even close. So stop it.

What is telling is that you describe the Pope as "Francis is as Machiavellian and narcissistic and as obsessed with power politics as any of the other politicians I mentioned." based on your very skewed personal opinion and nasty catch phrases and turns of phrase, but you turn around and slander my character for pointing out that the Pope, Christs representative on earth, devoted a lifetime to service in the name of Jesus and His values.

I think your nasty and slanderous posts aren't in the slightest representative of Catholicism. I've finally learned my lesson and will never respond to your nasty, bitter, toxic rhetoric again.

[Gandalf the Grey]

What is telling is that you describe the Pope as "Francis is as Machiavellian and narcissistic and as obsessed with power politics as any of the other politicians I mentioned." based on your very skewed personal opinion ....

Yeah, the only thing that is telling about it is that I have my eyes open, that I'm not blinded by this Francis cult-of-personality that you have engulfed yourself in.

You and your veritable worship of the man are literally the embodiment of every single Protestant argument against the Papacy.

.....and nasty catch phrases and turns of phrase, but you turn around and slander my character for pointing out that the Pope, Christs representative on earth, devoted a lifetime to service in the name of Jesus and His values.

Last I checked, even Francis rejected the use of the title of himself being Christ's vicar.

And you and I clearly have wildly different views as to what it means to serve Jesus. And it certainly doesn't involve Francis' constant promotion of corrupt and morally dubious individuals into positions of power, protecting sexual predators, or, say, funneling millions of dollars from the Catholic University' of Argentina's endowment into Vatican coffers from 2005-2011, right in the midst of the Vatican Bank crisis. Or how Cardinal Pell who was originally hired to try and clean up the Vatican finances was suddenly dismissed by Francis and then wound up having false charges of sexual abuse leveled at him which were orchestrated by one of Francis' underlings, Cardinal Biucci, who's now himself been convicted of his own host of financial doings like money laundering?

I think your nasty and slanderous posts aren't in the slightest representative of Catholicism. I've finally learned my lesson and will never respond to your nasty, bitter, toxic rhetoric again.

Right, because apparently according to you Francis is perfect and impeccable and does no wrong?

Well, so much for the "Francis really didn't mean that" Francis-splainers....Francis is positively in favor of blessing sin now.

Are you seriously going to tell me that this isn't politically calculated and motivated? Of course it is. He's pandering to popular modernist secular sentiment while pretending to put Christ's face on it.

Whatever "god" he's serving, it's not the God of Christ or the Catholic Church.

https://apnews.com/article/vatican-lgb ... 6e739d1d8

[zeno]

Enough.