Demasculinizing the Church

[Doom]

Pope Francis is whining about alleged "problems' that he could easily fix by a stroke of his pen "There are no women on this Papal commission on which I am the only person on the face of the planet who determines the membership", gee, how do you fix THAT? I have no idea. It's a mystery.

It is similar to politicians like Hillary Clinton, Kamala Harris, and Nancy Pelosi who claim "women are paid less than men for the exact same job!" But then when you look at the payroll for their staff, you discover, surprise, surprise, surprise, that the women on their staff earn significantly less than the men. Are we seriously expected to believe that these people are going to fix everything that is wrong with society when they won't lift a finger to fix an alleged "injustice" that is of their own making? They are going to guarantee all women everywhere equal pay when they won't even pay their own women staffers as much as the men?

This is is what is known as "virtue signaling", which is where you mouth empty words and make empty gestures that sound high and virtuous, but you don't really mean it, and have no intention of actually doing anything meaningful about it. You only say it so that you can earn the praise of others for your "high ideals" and "good intentions".

[Kage_ar]

Yes, women are the backbone of parishes (and probably dioceses as well, tbh - I think most chancery employees tend to be women). That Pope Francis doesn't know this speaks to his lack of experience in parishes.

Perhaps the parishes in other parts of the world have a different makeup?

[Kage_ar]

A business could employ 80% women who do the same job as a male employee but get paid less for it.

Puhleeeezzzeee.

In my corporate career, I worked in the billing and audit field of the telecom industry. When companies other than "ma bell aka Bellco" were allowed to sell dial tone, many of the companies doing this were simply re-selling "ma bell's" dial tone. Learning the proper way to submit orders to these very antiquated systems was an entire field in itself. Orders would be rejected for punctuation in the wrong spot, these rejects caused delays in bringing or changing service for the end user.

Up jumped a bunch of software companies selling products that would "bond" the reseller's data entry screens to the Bellco system. Their selling point was that every reject was billed to the reseller by the Bellco at $50, the average order had blah blah number of rejects therefore the savings in reject costs would cause this software to pay for itself in about a minute.

Enter me. I am a born skeptic. I had been auditing bills from wholesale companies for years in the long distance world, and had quickly become an expert in Bellco resale invoices. In the thousands and thousands of invoices I had reviewed, I had never seen a charge for a reject. I scoured the legal documents (public utility, so, pricing had to be filed with state Public Service Commissions), I scoured contracts and I scoured invoices.

Attended a huge conference where companies were selling software to telecom companies. I began questioning the $50 per reject claim to the point where I carried a $50 bill and said I would give it to anyone who could show me any bill with a charge for a reject.

In the end, discovered that this $50 was from a whitepaper that had estimated the "cost" of a reject (manhours in data entry, lost revenue, etc.) as $50. The myth had grown and become "everyone knows".

Was there a time in our nation when women were paid less for the same job, sure. Has this been the case in the past 60 years with the passage of the Federal Equal Pay Act? Well, there are the rogue employers who violate the law, sure. The law of the land prohibits such disparity. I've worked for public and private corporations, small and multi-national companies, I have been a hiring manager, have sat on compensation committees, there has never been a pay scale that was based on gender.

Get so weary of these old myths getting bantered around. If you know of someone violating the law, please, report them to the to the EEOC.

[peregrinator]

Perhaps the parishes in other parts of the world have a different makeup?

I don't really think they do, but even if they did, he wouldn't know.

[Stella]

Pope Francis is whining about alleged "problems' that he could easily fix by a stroke of his pen "There are no women on this Papal commission on which I am the only person on the face of the planet who determines the membership", gee, how do you fix THAT? I have no idea. It's a mystery.

It is similar to politicians like Hillary Clinton, Kamala Harris, and Nancy Pelosi who claim "women are paid less than men for the exact same job!" But then when you look at the payroll for their staff, you discover, surprise, surprise, surprise, that the women on their staff earn significantly less than the men. Are we seriously expected to believe that these people are going to fix everything that is wrong with society when they won't lift a finger to fix an alleged "injustice" that is of their own making? They are going to guarantee all women everywhere equal pay when they won't even pay their own women staffers as much as the men?

This is is what is known as "virtue signaling", which is where you mouth empty words and make empty gestures that sound high and virtuous, but you don't really mean it, and have no intention of actually doing anything meaningful about it. You only say it so that you can earn the praise of others for your "high ideals" and "good intentions".

Pope Francis has changed a lot including appointing women to important roles in the hierarchy of the Vatican. The big challenge is to change the culture so that women aren't just tokens of equality but genuine influencers. That applies to your example of women in politics. Who sets the rules of how gender pays are calculated? You are arguing that those female politicians are enforcing less pay on female staffers but these rates are set by policies outside their control. It's the misogynistic culture that needs cleaning up.

[Stella]

A business could employ 80% women who do the same job as a male employee but get paid less for it.

Puhleeeezzzeee.

In my corporate career, I worked in the billing and audit field of the telecom industry. When companies other than "ma bell aka Bellco" were allowed to sell dial tone, many of the companies doing this were simply re-selling "ma bell's" dial tone. Learning the proper way to submit orders to these very antiquated systems was an entire field in itself. Orders would be rejected for punctuation in the wrong spot, these rejects caused delays in bringing or changing service for the end user.

Up jumped a bunch of software companies selling products that would "bond" the reseller's data entry screens to the Bellco system. Their selling point was that every reject was billed to the reseller by the Bellco at $50, the average order had blah blah number of rejects therefore the savings in reject costs would cause this software to pay for itself in about a minute.

Enter me. I am a born skeptic. I had been auditing bills from wholesale companies for years in the long distance world, and had quickly become an expert in Bellco resale invoices. In the thousands and thousands of invoices I had reviewed, I had never seen a charge for a reject. I scoured the legal documents (public utility, so, pricing had to be filed with state Public Service Commissions), I scoured contracts and I scoured invoices.

Attended a huge conference where companies were selling software to telecom companies. I began questioning the $50 per reject claim to the point where I carried a $50 bill and said I would give it to anyone who could show me any bill with a charge for a reject.

In the end, discovered that this $50 was from a whitepaper that had estimated the "cost" of a reject (manhours in data entry, lost revenue, etc.) as $50. The myth had grown and become "everyone knows".

Was there a time in our nation when women were paid less for the same job, sure. Has this been the case in the past 60 years with the passage of the Federal Equal Pay Act? Well, there are the rogue employers who violate the law, sure. The law of the land prohibits such disparity. I've worked for public and private corporations, small and multi-national companies, I have been a hiring manager, have sat on compensation committees, there has never been a pay scale that was based on gender.

Get so weary of these old myths getting bantered around. If you know of someone violating the law, please, report them to the to the EEOC.

If you note from my post that you responded to, I was referencing secular policy of the past and not today, as an example of the disparity. The Church has been slower to move with the times in that regard. Lets forget the ordination of women. We know that isn't going to be a thing but there are deficiencies in the structure of the Church with regards to women's contributions. A walk through the Vatican set up makes that clear. It was an issue at Vatican II.

https://www.vaticannews.va/en/vatican-c ... eyder.html

[peregrinator]

The government of the Church flows from the sacrament of Holy Orders so women are not part of the "hierarchy"

[Jack3]

Yes, women are the backbone of parishes (and probably dioceses as well, tbh - I think most chancery employees tend to be women). That Pope Francis doesn't know this speaks to his lack of experience in parishes.

He is probably not referring to the context of USA.

The local parishes are really the only places you’ll find women’s roles though. In the realms where major problems in the Church are addressed or direction of the Church determined or theological work done, it’s very masculine orientated.

I think that, to some extent, this is applicable to the Church in Kerala. Although women do a lot of the volunteering and working, various decision-making committees are male-dominated. Also, during events, most people seated on the dais are men. Perhaps thai reflects the slightly relatively conservative notions of gender and family in the society here.

[Kage_ar]

Just a note from the trenches.

Parish up the road has begun a "young adults" group. Those attending are in that post-college early career age bracket. They had about 30 at their first meeting. All but 2 of the attendees are young men.

[peregrinator]

Just a note from the trenches.

Parish up the road has begun a "young adults" group. Those attending are in that post-college early career age bracket. They had about 30 at their first meeting. All but 2 of the attendees are young men.

Not surprising, I think most women that age who would potentially be interested in a "young adults" church group are already married or engaged.

[Kage_ar]

Just a note from the trenches.

Parish up the road has begun a "young adults" group. Those attending are in that post-college early career age bracket. They had about 30 at their first meeting. All but 2 of the attendees are young men.

Not surprising, I think most women that age who would potentially be interested in a "young adults" church group are already married or engaged.

This group is open to both singles and married folks.

[peregrinator]

Doesn't change the fact that most people view such groups as a place to meet singles.