“This is a mystery”

The forum for specific questions and inquiries into the Catholic faith. Think of this as an online RCIA session. No debating allowed on this forum. Responses must reflect the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Post Reply
User avatar
Doom
Journeyman
Journeyman
Posts: 863
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:38 pm
Religion: Catholic

“This is a mystery”

Post by Doom »

But I mean in reference to Christ and his Church

I have heard that the Greek word translated “mystery” is “mysterion” which in the Vulgate is translated “sacramentum”.

Does this passage in which Paul talks about marriage and calls marriage a “mystery” sacramental language? Is he explicitly calling matrimony a sacrament in this passage? (Even granting that the way I just described it is anachronistic because “sacrament” didn’t become a popular term until Tertullian and the modern definition “a visible sign of an invisible reality which conveys what it symbolizes” wouldn’t arrive until Augustine)”.)
If you ever feel like Captain Picard yelling about how many lights there are, it is probably time to leave the thread.
User avatar
VeryTas
Pioneer
Pioneer
Posts: 72
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2024 10:04 pm
Location: WA
Religion: Catholic
Contact:

Re: “This is a mystery”

Post by VeryTas »

How do we know Paul is calling human-to-human marriage the mystery? "This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church." -Ephesians 5:32
User avatar
Doom
Journeyman
Journeyman
Posts: 863
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:38 pm
Religion: Catholic

Re: “This is a mystery”

Post by Doom »

That is my question: does "mystery" imply "sacrament"? The fact that the Vulgate translates "mysterion" as "sacramentum" would seem to suggest it.
If you ever feel like Captain Picard yelling about how many lights there are, it is probably time to leave the thread.
User avatar
peregrinator
Journeyman
Journeyman
Posts: 612
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:25 pm
Location: I left my heart in Chartres
Religion: Catholic

Re: “This is a mystery”

Post by peregrinator »

Even today Greek Catholics and Orthodox refer to sacraments as "mysteries"
User avatar
Doom
Journeyman
Journeyman
Posts: 863
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:38 pm
Religion: Catholic

Re: “This is a mystery”

Post by Doom »

Yes, so is St Paul saying in this passage that marriage is a sacrament? If this is the implication; then it is the best proof text for the sacramental nature of marriage. The only other proof text I have heard of for this position is the wedding at Cana, where it said that Jesus "blessed" marriage, but there is a difference between blessing something and raising it to the level of a sacrament.
If you ever feel like Captain Picard yelling about how many lights there are, it is probably time to leave the thread.
User avatar
gherkin
Citizen
Citizen
Posts: 446
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:09 am
Religion: Catholic

Re: “This is a mystery”

Post by gherkin »

I wouldn't think of this as a text that would convince a Protestant of the sacramental nature of marriage, but I don't think there's any doubt that we as Catholics should see here a reference to that. St. Thomas, for example, reads it as straightforwardly sacramental language:
He goes on to interpret this mystically, and he says 'This is a great sacrament', it is the symbol of a sacred reality, namely, the union of Christ and the Church. “I will not hide from you the mysteries of God” (Wis. 6:24).

Notice here that four Sacraments are termed great. Baptism by reason of its effect, since it blots out sin and opens the gate of paradise; Confirmation by reason of its minister, it is conferred only by bishops and not by others; the Eucharist because of what it contains, the Whole Christ; and Matrimony by reason of its signification, for it symbolizes the union of Christ and the Church.
A contemporary exegete schooled in historical-critical methodologies isn't going to be impressed with the way St. Thomas reads the Scriptures, but of course modern methods of exegesis are desiccated and largely skeptical, so who cares what such an exegete would say?
User avatar
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
Posts: 960
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:54 pm
Location: Not quite 90 degrees
Religion: Catholic

Re: “This is a mystery”

Post by Obi-Wan Kenobi »

Modernists :fyi:
User avatar
Doom
Journeyman
Journeyman
Posts: 863
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:38 pm
Religion: Catholic

Re: “This is a mystery”

Post by Doom »

I’m not interested in convincing Protestants, many don’t believe in the idea of a sacrament, while the ones who do (such as Lutherans and Anglicans) are unlikely to be convinced by a proof text, for the same reason Catholics are not convinced by proof texts for Protestant doctrines.
If you ever feel like Captain Picard yelling about how many lights there are, it is probably time to leave the thread.
Post Reply