Charismatic Renewal

[Bartholomew]

Today I learned about charismatic renewal, and what I learned shocked me. I was even more shocked after learning that Ralph Martin and other theologians I admire are Charismatic Renewalists. I also saw a connection to Franciscan University and EWTN.

What exactly is the Charismatic Renewal movement? Is it a hybrid of Protestantism and Catholicism? Renewalists seem to promote heresies.

Should I start speaking in tongues?

[anawim]

It got its start at a Catholic college in western PA. Long story short, two faculty advisors to a group of students wanted to deepen their faith and thought that the neo-Pentecostal connection that an Episcopal minister had, could give them advice. He directed them to a local group. After that involvement, they decided to introduce it to a yearly retreat for some of the college students. That was at Duquesne University in Feb. '67. Because of their friendships, it spread quickly to Notre Dame and the U. of MI, soon after. The rest as they say, is history.

[Peetem]

My MIL (RIP) was very Catholic, orthodox in her faith, and also very charismatic.

From my point of view, the style of worship has a strong emotional component along with physical manifestations of that emotional "connection" (i.e., raising up of arms, eyes-closed with head tilted back, etc.) There tends to be a bunch of hokey-lyrics-droning-music similar to what one might hear at Hillsong United concert/praise and worship service. Folks claim to receive the gift of tongue's, some prophecy and other gifts of the Holy Spirit (some I can't find a scriptural basis for like "slain in the spirit", but that doesn't mean this isn't a real manifestation).

Some of the now popular at Mass of hand-holding during the Our Father and the orans posture during prayer, probably came from the Charismatic style of worship (BTW - both of these are improper, especially the orans posture which is reserved for the Priest, and should be avoided).

In my humble opinion, in general folks that claim to be part of the charismatic renewal tend to be very devout and serious Catholic's.

But it's not for me and some of it, again just my opinion, borders on making the Catholic-Mass more protestant looking and thus, more about entertainment and feelings and not about proper worship of God.

[anawim]

and the orans posture during prayer, probably came from the Charismatic style of worship (BTW - both of these are improper, especially the orans posture which is reserved for the Priest, and should be avoided).

Actually, it is the priest who should fold his hands in prayer during the Our Father. It was sometime in the 1950's that the Pope allowed for the congregation to join the priest in saying the Our Father. Prior to that it was only said by the priest. The priest folds his hands in prayer when the congregation prays with him, and he holds his hands in the orans posture when he is praying on behalf of the people. So when the congregation joined him in saying the Our Father, they should have stopped. Nobody should be using the orans posture at that time.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

For a little background on Franciscan U: It used to be a generic Catholic-branded but not terribly Catholic institution. When Fr. Michael Scanlan was put in charge, he wanted to shake things up. But you can't fire tenured faculty; all you can do is make them want to leave. He found that the Charismatics were the families who would provide students who wouldn't put up with all that modernist nonsense, and that's why FSU has the charismatic reputation. But plenty of people go there and get a good Catholic education without going in for charismaticism.

As far as EWTN goes, there was a time when Mother Angelica and her sisters were into that, but they eventually left it behind.

Finally, I have heard Ralph Martin speak and read his books. IMHO, he's quite solid, and he doesn't push charismaticism.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

Actually, it is the priest who should fold his hands in prayer during the Our Father. It was sometime in the 1950's that the Pope allowed for the congregation to join the priest in saying the Our Father. Prior to that it was only said by the priest. The priest folds his hands in prayer when the congregation prays with him, and he holds his hands in the orans posture when he is praying on behalf of the people. So when the congregation joined him in saying the Our Father, they should have stopped. Nobody should be using the orans posture at that time.

This is absolutely correct. Watch during Mass and you'll see this in action, and the Our Father is the only exception.

[Doom]

I have never seen a priest NOT do the orans posture during the Our Father, do you mean that pretty much all priests I've ever seen hold Mass were violating the rubrics?

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

No. The rubrics should have been changed but never were.

[Irenaeus]

Actually, it is the priest who should fold his hands in prayer during the Our Father. It was sometime in the 1950's that the Pope allowed for the congregation to join the priest in saying the Our Father. Prior to that it was only said by the priest. The priest folds his hands in prayer when the congregation prays with him, and he holds his hands in the orans posture when he is praying on behalf of the people. So when the congregation joined him in saying the Our Father, they should have stopped. Nobody should be using the orans posture at that time.

This is absolutely correct. Watch during Mass and you'll see this in action, and the Our Father is the only exception.

So what should we be doing with our hands during the Our Father? I learned of this only yesterday on Instagram of all places. I've long held my hands in the orans manner, I think.

[peregrinator]

Laypeople can, within the bounds of propriety, do whatever they like - unless a certain posture has been prescribed.

[anawim]

So what should we be doing with our hands during the Our Father? I learned of this only yesterday on Instagram of all places. I've long held my hands in the orans manner, I think.

I fold my hands in prayer. A handful also do the same. Many families hold hands; others use the orans posture.

[Obi-Wan Kenobi]

I'd rather people didn't hold hands, but I've got much bigger fish to fry. I do want people who chose to do this to be respectful of those who choose not to.

[aussie_aussie_oi_oi]

I and most of my friends have been Charismatics for over 40 years. We have toned down the emotionalism over the years. We also tend to be more theologically (and generally) educated than the average Catholics. These days we tend to be more liturgically mainline and do not hold hands etc.

Many of my Charismatic friends have moved over to the Latin Mass. The priest there (Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter) was also involved in Charismatic Renewal.

Some Marian Apparitions (e.g. Medjugorje) are also very popular with some charismatics but most of those closest to me are not supportive of that.

[Bartholomew]

For a little background on Franciscan U: It used to be a generic Catholic-branded but not terribly Catholic institution. When Fr. Michael Scanlan was put in charge, he wanted to shake things up. But you can't fire tenured faculty; all you can do is make them want to leave. He found that the Charismatics were the families who would provide students who wouldn't put up with all that modernist nonsense, and that's why FSU has the charismatic reputation. But plenty of people go there and get a good Catholic education without going in for charismaticism.

As far as EWTN goes, there was a time when Mother Angelica and her sisters were into that, but they eventually left it behind.

Finally, I have heard Ralph Martin speak and read his books. IMHO, he's quite solid, and he doesn't push charismaticism.

This is all good news to me.

With regard to Ralph Martin, however, I watched a recent video (posted 7-months ago) from Renewal Ministries, Ralph Martin's group, that explained "The Truth About Vatican II and the Charismatic Renewal."

Here's a description of the video:

"In recent years, there have been various critiques of both Vatican II and the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. These critiques have varied greatly in quality and seriousness. In this video, Dr. Ralph Martin, Dr. Mary Healy, Peter Herbeck, and Pete Burak explain why both Vatican II and the Catholic Charismatic Renewal are true works of the Holy Spirit for our time."

A gentleman named Kennedy Hall, a self-described traditionalist, responds to the Renewal Ministries video in his own video titled, "Renewal Ministries Responds: More Heresy That Leads to Demonic Possession."

It is just now dawning on me why Ralph Martin heads a ministry called RENEWAL Ministries.

[Doom]

I'd rather people didn't hold hands, but I've got much bigger fish to fry. I do want people who chose to do this to be respectful of those who choose not to.

I think it comes from the mistaken idea that the people are supposed to imitate everything the priest does, so when everyone is doing the orans posture hands start overlapping and well, some let get out of hand

[anawim]

For a little background on Franciscan U: It used to be a generic Catholic-branded but not terribly Catholic institution. When Fr. Michael Scanlan was put in charge, he wanted to shake things up. But you can't fire tenured faculty; all you can do is make them want to leave. He found that the Charismatics were the families who would provide students who wouldn't put up with all that modernist nonsense, and that's why FSU has the charismatic reputation. But plenty of people go there and get a good Catholic education without going in for charismaticism.

As far as EWTN goes, there was a time when Mother Angelica and her sisters were into that, but they eventually left it behind.

Finally, I have heard Ralph Martin speak and read his books. IMHO, he's quite solid, and he doesn't push charismaticism.

Having attended two of their summer conferences (ABS & DTF) for the last 25 years, they have definitely toned down. There is little to no hands in the air kind of praise, and ever since Jim Cowan left, the music has become more traditional.

Can't speak for the Youth Conferences; I haven't been a 'yute' in 50 years.