The Catholic Message Board

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 2:51 pm Another point: We don't get to Heaven by being good. We get to Heaven by being holy, which is the result of an unmerited, unearned gift of grace.

If one doesn't have the grace to be good - they can't be good, no matter what.

Is this true?

Doom wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 2:52 pm Ontologically good.

How is this goodness different from saintly good?

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 2:51 pm Another point: We don't get to Heaven by being good. We get to Heaven by being holy, which is the result of an unmerited, unearned gift of grace.

What is the difference between good and holy? Only God's grace?

BobCatholic wrote: ↑Wed Apr 16, 2025 3:44 pm If one doesn't have the grace to be good - they can't be good, no matter what.

No. If one doesn't have the grace to by holy, they can't be holy no matter what. But setting aside (if I may) the question of unbaptized persons below the age of reason, it is theologically certain everyone is offered the grace needed to be holy.

BobCatholic wrote: ↑Wed Apr 16, 2025 3:45 pm What is the difference between good and holy? Only God's grace?

They are two distinct categories. A thing is good to the extent it is what it ought to be. A thing (rational being) is holy if it has sanctifying grace.

BobCatholic wrote: ↑Wed Apr 16, 2025 3:44 pm

Doom wrote: ↑Mon Apr 07, 2025 2:52 pm Ontologically good.

How is this goodness different from saintly good?

Do you know what the word "ontological" means? "Of, or relating to being or existence".

Doom wrote: ↑Wed Apr 16, 2025 8:36 pm Do you know what the word "ontological" means? "Of, or relating to being or existence".

That's why I asked the question.

Being ontologically good means it is better to exist than not. It has nothing to do with mortality. In the ontological sense, a mountain is good, an ocean is good, a supernova is good. But it makes no sense to say that any of these things are saintly or moral.

May I ask what's prompting this line of questioning? Are you just curious? In a dispute with someone? Or ....?

i thought that goodness comes from God's grace.

One cannot be good without God's grace.

I recall the saying “there but for the grace of God go I”

Creating someone is an act of Grace. We have no entitlement to existence, God gives us existence as a free gift like Grace.

Guess I was wrong about that.

Lots of good people are in hell, according to how this discussion is flowing, and I don't know how to take that.

You're taking a fundamentally Pelagian line of thought. We do not get to Heaven by being good. Period, end of story.

One cannot be good without God's grace.

Not true. One cannot be holy without God's grace.

This is like Kant's Antinomy on Free Will vs Determinism
If you start with the premise of the goodness of creation you can arrive at an explanation of privation.
If you call into question that premise you go nowhere.

I read your syllogism and think : Sounds logical but then consider the simiar thinking in Eden about being like God. They already had that possibility and the questioning of it lost it for them. I am not saying be irrational. but in any view of reallity there will be a mystery that must be located somewhere.

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote: ↑Mon Apr 21, 2025 4:45 pm You're taking a fundamentally Pelagian line of thought. We do not get to Heaven by being good. Period, end of story.

One cannot be good without God's grace.

Not true. One cannot be holy without God's grace.

I know, we get to heaven through God's grace.

I thought God's grace also makes us good as well as holy.

One can't be evil and holy, right?

Correct. But goodness and holiness are not identical. One can be good in many ways, but at the same time not be holy.

Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote: ↑Tue Apr 29, 2025 2:55 pm Correct. But goodness and holiness are not identical. One can be good in many ways, but at the same time not be holy.

So Adam and Eve were created good. Were they created Holy too?

When they fell, they lost God's grace and thus no longer holy.

Whether or not they were given sanctifying grace immediately is a debated theological point. I think the majority opinion is that they were, but not for certain.

But had they died without sanctifying grace, they would have enjoyed an earthly paradise of some sort. It's only because of inherited Original Sin that this "option" is no longer open.