The Catholic Message Board

peregrinator wrote: ↑Sat Apr 13, 2024 2:14 pm

ProZak wrote: ↑Fri Apr 12, 2024 6:19 pm Seriously, some of you believe that Pope Francis is teaching heresy?

I don't think he's taught heresy - that would require obstinacy and no individual in the Church has the authority to correct him - but he's definitely said some things that are erroneous or heterodox.

He is undisciplined and tends to shoot from the hip speaking without thinking, a habit which often results in his saying things he later has to retract or clarify, similar to Trump, whom ironically is someone for whom Francis has particular disdain, perhaps because they are too much alike. While this tends to create confusion, it isn't heretical, and I don't even think the confusion is intentional, he is just a scatterbrained and inconsistent thinker.

That would be bad, but manageable, if his errors didn't also end up in print.

Seriously, are Catholics that ignorant of the faith that he is causing them confusion? Seems to me some may be looking to be "confused"...

Doom wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 6:43 am He is undisciplined and tends to shoot from the hip speaking without thinking, a habit which often results in his saying things he later has to retract or clarify, similar to Trump, whom ironically is someone for whom Francis has particular disdain, perhaps because they are too much alike. While this tends to create confusion, it isn't heretical, and I don't even think the confusion is intentional, he is just a scatterbrained and inconsistent thinker.

I agree with Doom.

That, and the possibility that his thinking process borders on, if not crosses over into, being ADD.

ProZak wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:03 pm Seriously, are Catholics that ignorant of the faith that he is causing them confusion? Seems to me some may be looking to be "confused"...

I think that's true of too many people about a lot of different issues, not just in regard to faith. As Thomas Sowell is credited with saying,
"The problem isn't that Johnny can't read. The problem isn't even that Johnny can't think. The problem is that Johnny doesn't know what thinking is; he confuses it with feeling".

ProZak wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:03 pm Seriously, are Catholics that ignorant of the faith that he is causing them confusion? Seems to me some may be looking to be "confused"...

People are "confused" not about the faith, but about the fact that the Pope seems to be contradicting the teaching of the Church as well as that of his recent predecessors.

ProZak wrote: ↑Mon Apr 15, 2024 10:03 pm Seriously, are Catholics that ignorant of the faith that he is causing them confusion? Seems to me some may be looking to be "confused"...

People are right to be confused when the Church claims to uphold certain beliefs, ideals, or principles, and then watch the Pope and other bishops brazenly ignore or even praise those who defy those principles.

What is a faithful Catholic to think when Joe Biden, who rejects pretty much every moral teaching the Church has and gets praised by Pope Francis as "a true Christian" and "a faithful son of the Church"?

Granted, the Pope probably said that mainly to make yet another dig at Trump whom the Pontiff has denounced as "not a real Christian" because he wants to reduce illegal immigration by building a wall on the border, a particularly hypocritical thing for the Pope to denounce given that a gigantic wall surrounds the Vatican itself. I mean, the wall surrounding the Vatican is so impressive that one of the later Mission Impossible movies (I think it was Ghost Protocol but I don't want to waste time looking it up to make certain) made a major action set piece of having Tom Cruise jump over the wall to enter the Vatican.

I was blessed about 3 weeks back to cut through the anti papal propagandists to give my 88 year old uncle the truth. My Aunty died a year ago and she had been the one who kept her family protected from anti Francis lies. Anyway my Uncle said ‘apparently Pope Francis is allowing gay marriage’. I was privileged to be the one to explain the truth of it. That the document was a response to German desires to allow gay marriage. It acknowledged that gay people despite the affliction, want to grow closer to God just like the rest of us. The blessing allowed does not bless their union but blesses their faith in struggle.

My Uncle had got his information from the anti Francis veins pulsing through the Catholic world (who have no interest in understanding in their hearts)… not from the official documents or other DDF sources, but the purely toxic anti Francis propagandists.

It can however be said that Francis supports same-sex civil unions, even in places where they don't currently exist, which had previously been rejected by the Holy See.

peregrinator wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 12:49 pm It can however be said that Francis supports same-sex civil unions, even in places where they don't currently exist, which had previously been rejected by the Holy See.

His expressions were more a support for the rights of gay people in the wider community where discrimination happens. They came at a time when Francis as AB in Argentina was publicly condemning the introduction of gay marriage. It was a proposed solution and not one of changing Church law.

By a similar token Pope Benedict XVI has expressed a desire for a deeper look into Communion for the divorced and remarried in a similar vein. Care for people suffering. That had lots of people up in arms at the beginning of his pontificate as well. https://www.vatican.va/content/benedict ... aosta.html

If it is read carefully, what B XVI said is not controversial. He is not proposing admission to Communion without an annulment and (presumably) convalidation. What he said is this:

Whether, in fact, a moment of invalidity could be discovered here because the Sacrament was found to be lacking a fundamental dimension, I do not dare to say. I personally thought so, but from the discussions we had I realized that it is a highly-complex problem and ought to be studied further. But given these people's painful plight, it must be studied further.

He is asking if people who married in a Catholic rite but without faith might possibly be in an invalid marriage. Given that nothing further along these lines has occurred, it would appear that further study didn't come up with anything.

At any rate, not controversial except with a deliberate misreading or (in the case of the popular press) poor reading.

Stella wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 6:55 pm

peregrinator wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 12:49 pm It can however be said that Francis supports same-sex civil unions, even in places where they don't currently exist, which had previously been rejected by the Holy See.

His expressions were more a support for the rights of gay people in the wider community where discrimination happens. They came at a time when Francis as AB in Argentina was publicly condemning the introduction of gay marriage. It was a proposed solution and not one of changing Church law.

It's an issue of Church teaching, not Church law, insofar as the two can be separated. Francis's view (which he expressed as Abp. of Buenos Aires and also since his election as Pope) contradicts the teaching of the Church as expressed as recently as 2003:

https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/cong ... ns_en.html

Those who would move from tolerance to the legitimization of specific rights for cohabiting homosexual persons need to be reminded that the approval or legalization of evil is something far different from the toleration of evil.

In those situations where homosexual unions have been legally recognized or have been given the legal status and rights belonging to marriage, clear and emphatic opposition is a duty. One must refrain from any kind of formal cooperation in the enactment or application of such gravely unjust laws and, as far as possible, from material cooperation on the level of their application. In this area, everyone can exercise the right to conscientious objection.